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Thread: New Zealand Defence Forces

  1. #151
    Member madmike's Avatar
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    I'm a little bit confused...
    In UK and Australia the CT elements of the SOF: CRW of the 22nd SAS and TAG of the SASR and 2nd Cdo seem to be the most elite part of their parent units; kind of the elite within an elite.
    And CTTG looks to be worse trained than the regular (if SOF unit can be called "regular" ) two operational sqadrons of the 1st NZSAS Gp; STTAG operators have to pass less rigorus selection etc. Did i understand it correctly? Can anyone clear me up?

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmike View Post
    I'm a little bit confused...
    In UK and Australia the CT elements of the SOF: CRW of the 22nd SAS and TAG of the SASR and 2nd Cdo seem to be the most elite part of their parent units; kind of the elite within an elite.
    And CTTG looks to be worse trained than the regular (if SOF unit can be called "regular" ) two operational sqadrons of the 1st NZSAS Gp; STTAG operators have to pass less rigorus selection etc. Did i understand it correctly? Can anyone clear me up?
    I don't know if "worse" trained would be exactly accurate, maybe more focused on a particular set of skills. They are for CT, probably doesn't call for much yomping for 50Km's across the desert, or swimming up onto a beach.
    You mentioned the SAS (SFSG supposedly do alot of the CRW job now btw) and the SASR, well you could also mention GSG9 or GIGN, two law enforment units that are their respective national CT unit's....they don't need all the elements of training a military SF unit would in certain skill's.
    I guess what I'm saying is that, these guys will be selcted and well trained....I doubt their will be any sandbaggers allowed into such a vital role, and that just because it won't "who dare's win's" on their badge, does not mean they won't be up to scratch.

    IMHO.

  3. #153
    Member madmike's Avatar
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    Thanks for help Muttbutt
    Quote Originally Posted by muttbutt View Post
    I don't know if "worse" trained would be exactly accurate, maybe more focused on a particular set of skills. They are for CT, probably doesn't call for much yomping for 50Km's across the desert, or swimming up onto a beach.
    You're right, "worse" is not the best word... I was trying to say, that - according to my knowledge - 22nd SAS or SASR operator must be trained in full spectrum of operations first before he can join "black role" element.

    You mentioned the SAS (SFSG supposedly do alot of the CRW job now btw)...
    You have surprised me; I used to think that CRW is just a temprary duty for one of the "sabre" sqns. Are the SFGS members playing that role nowadays?

    ...well you could also mention GSG9 or GIGN, two law enforment units that are their respective national CT unit's....they don't need all the elements of training a military SF unit would in certain skill's.
    That's true, but just like I have written above, I mentioned military SOF units which also play a role of national level CT element. In most units I do know operator has to start as memeber of "regular" SOF element, then he can join CT element, which is considered as "higher level" team. Even if I do agree, that CT unit doesn't have to be trained in the same way like a military SOF unit, just like the two LE CT team You have used as an example...

  4. #154
    Official Team Milo Selection Committee BiZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmike View Post
    TAG of the SASR and 2nd Cdo seem to be the most elite part of their parent units; kind of the elite within an elite.
    Oh how I laugh...it's quite simply another role requiring upskilling in certain techniques. You're not some uber-jedi-ninja just because you're on black rotation... despite how many in 4 at the time thought they were.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by muttbutt View Post
    (SFSG supposedly do alot of the CRW job now btw)
    The truth is in the title (the second S, to be precise). SFSG provides the CBRN element (along with Alpha Troop , 821 EOD Sqn) and other support roles. The door kickers still come from H.

    Quote Originally Posted by madmike View Post
    You have surprised me; I used to think that CRW is just a temprary duty for one of the "sabre" sqns.
    Bar a permenant cadre of instructors, research staff and so on it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by madmike View Post
    Are the SFGS members playing that role nowadays?
    No - see above.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiZ View Post
    Oh how I laugh...it's quite simply another role requiring upskilling in certain techniques. You're not some uber-jedi-ninja just because you're on black rotation... despite how many in 4 at the time thought they were.
    OK Biz, but You have to agree, that one has to be fully skilled operator, before he can join TAG E or W or CRW as a "doorkicker". In CTTAG situation is different.
    BTW - You are from East Coast; if I'm not mistaken, TAG E consists of some CDT divers. What is their position in the TAG? Are they only support element members, or can they be assault team operators aswell?


    Quote Originally Posted by Royal View Post
    The truth is in the title (the second S, to be precise). SFSG provides the CBRN element (along with Alpha Troop , 821 EOD Sqn) and other support roles. The door kickers still come from H.
    OK, but that just confirms my opinion: SFSG soldiers/marines can get into CRW, but only as a support element member.

  7. #157
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    [QUOTE=vor033;4419786]A few new NZ Army Photos to keep the thread going - Sorry but no captions with these Photos






    DFSW PLT 2/1RNZIR EX Port Republic 2003

  8. #158
    Official Team Milo Selection Committee BiZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmike View Post
    OK Biz, but You have to agree, that one has to be fully skilled operator, before he can join TAG E or W or CRW as a "doorkicker".

    "Fully skilled" to use your vernacular, doesn't necessarily equate to being more "elite" than another within the same unit just because you're on a rotation that almost everyone else will be on at some stage of their service. You're simply learning new skills and techniques for that role.

    Just because CTTAG doesn't rely on all entrants to have come from from the NZSAS it doesn't mean they take "Joe blow" off the street. Non-NZ Army entrants would be of the NZ Police STG/AOS variety.


    Quote Originally Posted by madmike View Post
    if I'm not mistaken, TAG E consists of some CDT divers. What is their position in the TAG? Are they only support element members, or can they be assault team operators aswell?
    CDT operators are, as they always have been since their inception into TAG-W in the early 80's, fully fledged operators part of the team and hold both sniper and assault positions. Considering their own selection qualifications they require and build up and lead in training prior to hitting the teams they are more than capable and qualified for the role. They also bring skill sets and capabilities that otherwise would be missed.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiZ View Post
    "Fully skilled" to use your vernacular, doesn't necessarily equate to being more "elite" than another within the same unit just because you're on a rotation that almost everyone else will be on at some stage of their service. You're simply learning new skills and techniques for that role.
    I do agree, I was wrong, thanks for clearing me up...

    Just because CTTAG doesn't rely on all entrants to have come from from the NZSAS it doesn't mean they take "Joe blow" off the street. Non-NZ Army entrants would be of the NZ Police STG/AOS variety.
    OK, BiZ, but I was just surprised, that NZ model of CT element based on military SOF unit is different than Australian or British.


    CDT operators are, as they always have been since their inception into TAG-W in the early 80's, fully fledged operators part of the team and hold both sniper and assault positions. Considering their own selection qualifications they require and build up and lead in training prior to hitting the teams they are more than capable and qualified for the role. They also bring skill sets and capabilities that otherwise would be missed.
    You mean their EOD skills or diving capabilities? Or both of them?

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    Great thread

  11. #161
    Official Team Milo Selection Committee BiZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmike View Post
    but I was just surprised, that NZ model of CT element based on military SOF unit is different than Australian or British.
    NZ don't have the same numbers from which to draw upon. Thus use a different model. Simple.




    Quote Originally Posted by madmike View Post
    You mean their EOD skills or diving capabilities? Or both of them?
    Amongst others. Everybody learns something.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiZ View Post
    NZ don't have the same numbers from which to draw upon. Thus use a different model. Simple.
    Seems resonable. And what about "badged" memebers of NZ SAS who are operators of the CTTAG? Is this a temporary duty for them (do they have for exaple one platoon on rotation fo some time) or is it a premamanet position?


    Amongst others. Everybody learns something.
    I don't want to go off-top, cause it's NZ Armed Forces thread, but I'm curius about the way the off SASR/2nd Cdo Reg members are integrated into Australian TAGs. Because - if I'm not mistaken - their weapaon handling skillks, CQB etc skills are not the same like operators who passed through SASR or 2nd Cdo Reg qualification course. What is the training curriculum for the CDT divers who are to join TAG E or W? Do they have to pass through SASR or 2nd Cdo Reg qualification course abyway, or do they have diffrent system of training? Do they train with the other memberd of the TAG from the beginning, or do they have to learn some basics first?

  13. #163
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    Excellent Photos..What service pistol do you use? couldn't Id it from the photos..

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    Sig Sauer P226

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddypeps View Post
    Sig Sauer P226
    Thanks Mate.

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