Humwees - The Death Wagons of Iraq

[2RHPZ]

In Iraq, a Humvee – the modern military's jeep – is involved in an enemy action or a serious fender bender or rollover almost daily. Lt. Gen. Thomas F. Metz's command has experienced 13 Humvee rollovers, resulting in 17 of his soldiers dying. "Nine of the deaths occurred in the last 90 days," he says.

Gen. Metz says that most rollovers occur when "the driver has lost control of the vehicle." In a letter to his unit, he summed up other causes, such as "aggressive driving, lack of situational awareness, rough terrain, poor/limited visibility, adverse traffic conditions, improvised configurations and failure to wear seat belts."

Amen on the aggressive driving. If bad guys are firing rockets and automatic weapons and blowing off mines left, right and center, no one in his or her right mind would drive on the most dangerous roads in the world the way we oh-so-carefully drive by a parked police car on the freeway. As longtime guerrilla-war veteran Lt. Col. Ben Willis (retired) puts it, "The MO would be to put the pedal to the metal."

The problem is that the soft-skinned Humvee was conceived as a light utility truck – not a close combat vehicle. "The Humvee is horribly thin-skinned and underpowered," says Army veteran Scott Schreiber, who drove one for six years. "It should be used in roles that don’t call for armor. If the role calls for armor, it’s simple: use armor."

At the end of World War II, I was in a recon company in Italy. We started with armored cars – M-8s – but as Terrible Tito’s terrorists started using roadside mines and staging ambushes similar to the mean stuff going down in Iraq, our leaders quickly got rid of those thin-skinned suckers and put us in light tanks – M-24s. Within a year, as the guerrilla war with Yugoslavia heated up, we were given Sherman tanks – M-4s – with their even-thicker armor protection. And when a blown mine or ambush slapped shrapnel or slugs against the sides of our 36-ton tanks, we sat safely inside those steel walls, with our weapons turned full-bore on the enemy. Our armor protection gave us the critical edge our troopers should have today.

But here we are in Iraq after 15 bloody months still welding steel plate onto Humvees. Sure, our soldiers gain a tad more protection, but it also turns the vehicles into rollover queens because it shifts their center of gravity.

Meanwhile, we have the Pentagon spending billions of dollars on irrelevant gold-plated fighter aircraft and on the lightly armored Stryker – a vehicle that is not battle-tried and that the Army has placed in relatively safe northern Iraq. Not to mention the thousands of potentially lifesaving armored personnel carriers – M-113s – left over from the Cold War gathering dust in depots.

What's further wrong with this picture is that Iraq has excellent steelworkers and first-class machine shops that could be put to good use upgrading captured Iraqi equipment into armored vehicles capable of protecting our warriors while also securing our long, exposed supply lines.

Our modern generals might give a lot of lip service to protecting the force, but any way you cut it, what’s going on in Iraq is criminal. Clearly there’s a disconnect. The brass need to spend less time in their luxurious lakefront palaces and get down on the ground with the troops.

Maybe then they'll develop a greater sense of urgency about what's really needed on those killer roads the same way the 88th Division commanding general, Maj. Gen. Bryant E. Moore, did with us back in Italy and then again in Korea – where he was eventually killed as a corps commander leading from the front.

And maybe our lawmakers should stop by Walter Reed hospital and get some firsthand skinny from the terribly wounded being treated there about what a death wagon the Humvee has become from the way it's presently being used.

"How many soldiers and Marines need to be maimed or killed by roadside bombs before Congress will get off their tails?" Mary Martino rightfully asks. "My son is serving his country with honor and pride in Iraq ... and has the right to expect that his country will do whatever it takes to protect him in his duties."

[Sayeret]

I think its more of a problem of people not using the humvees correctly. The vehicle itself is a good vehicle but not for combat situations. I'm surprised more hasn't been done since the Battle of the Black Sea in Somalia, 1993.

Meanwhile, we have the Pentagon spending billions of dollars on irrelevant gold-plated fighter aircraft and on the lightly armored Stryker – a vehicle that is not battle-tried and that the Army has placed in relatively safe northern Iraq. Not to mention the thousands of potentially lifesaving armored personnel carriers – M-113s – left over from the Cold War gathering dust in depots.

I'm not sure what aircraft the author is talking about I'm assuming the F-22 but it would be able to greatly help the United States. Often a lot of the attacks against terrorists has been done by airpower and that is why the F-22 could help with this. Also the fact that its stealth would help if the United States were to invade another rogue nation like Iraq. Not to mention they have spent so much money on it before. Regarding the Stryker I can't say too much about. It doesn't sound too good but I bet its probably better than I think it is.

[flickme]

The vehicle itself is a good vehicle but not for combat situations.

What the hell r u talking about. The hummer was made for combat situations. Why else are the doors and windows bulletproof, and it can take a hit from a mine and still be intact. But your probably right about it not being used right.

[gilgoul]

Not to mention the thousands of potentially lifesaving armored personnel carriers – M-113s – left over from the Cold War gathering dust in depots.

"

Excuse me, but qualifying the M113 of life saver is a kind of joke, it`s aluminium frame, even upgraded, does not withstand an RPG, and te regular one is pierced easily by 762 and even by the ss109 5.56, at least on the sides. Secondly, the HUmmer when armoured constitutes still a pretty good tool for patrolling, please don`t forget that the m113 does`nt enter a lot of narrows streets, isn`t discreet and demands high maintenance.
As for overturning a Hummer, that`s news for me.

[OB Kenobi]

Not to mention the thousands of potentially lifesaving armored personnel carriers – M-113s – left over from the Cold War gathering dust in depots.

"

Excuse me, but qualifying the M113 of life saver is a kind of joke, it`s aluminium frame, even upgraded, does not withstand an RPG, and te regular one is pierced easily by 762 and even by the ss109 5.56, at least on the sides. Secondly, the HUmmer when armoured constitutes still a pretty good tool for patrolling, please don`t forget that the m113 does`nt enter a lot of narrows streets, isn`t discreet and demands high maintenance.
As for overturning a Hummer, that`s news for me.

Why are you doubting a Lt. General who was there?

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/...050504,00.html
http://www.showmenews.com/2004/May/20040530News011.asp
http://www.knotmag.com/?article=980
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04140/318504.stm

[csqnsas]

Gilgoul

The 113 series is no good?

Well yes you are correct if your talking about the 1970 Vietnam version and use of at that time...The last time the US was getting a beating from some insurgents...

Take a look at any Israeli incursion into any town( that means small streets and any other stupid comments people make) , not only will you see their own VERY heavy Apc the Achzarit but also on of their very own 113 versions the Nagmash/Bardelass. These rock and given the chance I be you as much as you want that EVERY last US soldier in Iraq would sooner be in one of those that a Hummer.

[csqnsas]

Gilgoul

The 113 series is no good?

Well yes you are correct if your talking about the 1970 Vietnam version and use of at that time...The last time the US was getting a beating from some insurgents...

Take a look at any Israeli incursion into any town( that means small streets and any other stupid comments people make) , not only will you see their own VERY heavy Apc the Achzarit but also on of their very own 113 versions the Nagmash/Bardelass. These rock and given the chance I be you as much as you want that EVERY last US soldier in Iraq would sooner be in one of those that a Hummer.

[Royal]

The vehicle itself is a good vehicle but not for combat situations.

What the hell r u talking about. The hummer was made for combat situations. Why else are the doors and windows bulletproof, and it can take a hit from a mine and still be intact. But your probably right about it not being used right.

Bullet proof against 12.7mm??????

What kind of mine is that? a butterfly mine maybe, an AT mine, f**k all chance.

[csqnsas]

Gilgoul

The 113 series is no good?

Well yes you are correct if your talking about the 1970 Vietnam version and use of at that time...The last time the US was getting a beating from some insurgents...

Take a look at any Israeli incursion into any town( that means small streets and any other stupid comments people make) , not only will you see their own VERY heavy Apc the Achzarit but also on of their very own 113 versions the Nagmash/Bardelass. These rock and given the chance I be you as much as you want that EVERY last US soldier in Iraq would sooner be in one of those that a Hummer.

[mattnwnc03]

Gilgoul

The 113 series is no good?

Well yes you are correct if your talking about the 1970 Vietnam version and use of at that time...The last time the US was getting a beating from some insurgents...

Take a look at any Israeli incursion into any town( that means small streets and any other stupid comments people make) , not only will you see their own VERY heavy Apc the Achzarit but also on of their very own 113 versions the Nagmash/Bardelass. These rock and given the chance I be you as much as you want that EVERY last US soldier in Iraq would sooner be in one of those that a Hummer.

hell all i know is we need somthin better.the hummer is not a apc and putting armor kits on it is not helping.its like ww2 the sherman tank, we got caught with our pants down again.

[Sayeret]

Flickme wrote:

What the hell r u talking about. The hummer was made for combat situations. Why else are the doors and windows bulletproof, and it can take a hit from a mine and still be intact. But your probably right about it not being used right.

Okay, technically the hummer is a combat vehicle but its very vulnerable and thats why I said it wasn't. Also the doors aern't bullet proof to 7.62x39mm bullets, the same fired by Ak-47s. It talks about it in Black Hawk Down. Also like someone said before me the humvee isn't going to be surviving any mines unless its an anti-personnel mine. A lot of the IEDs are constructed with mines.

gilgoul wrote:

Excuse me, but qualifying the M113 of life saver is a kind of joke, it`s aluminium frame, even upgraded, does not withstand an RPG, and te regular one is pierced easily by 762 and even by the ss109 5.56, at least on the sides. Secondly, the HUmmer when armoured constitutes still a pretty good tool for patrolling, please don`t forget that the m113 does`nt enter a lot of narrows streets, isn`t discreet and demands high maintenance.
As for overturning a Hummer, that`s news for me.

The M113 has many flaws but its still safer than a humvee. I'm pretty sure M113s or APCs like the M113 were sent into Mogadishu to resuce the Rangers and Delta operators. They succeeded in pulling the troops out besides the fact that the Somalis had tons of AK-47s and RPG-7s.

mattnwnc03 wrote:

the hummer is not a apc and putting armor kits on it is not helping.its like ww2 the sherman tank, we got caught with our pants down again.

Adding more armor to the hummer isn't meant to make it into an APC, its just to make it a little safer, which it is doing. The Israelis armored a lot of thier humvees and had a lot of success with it.

[flickme]

Wasnt the hummer tested to suvive a mine hit with the personell compartment still in tact. Ive seen videos of it myself.

[mattnwnc03]

Flickme wrote:

What the hell r u talking about. The hummer was made for combat situations. Why else are the doors and windows bulletproof, and it can take a hit from a mine and still be intact. But your probably right about it not being used right.

Okay, technically the hummer is a combat vehicle but its very vulnerable and thats why I said it wasn't. Also the doors aern't bullet proof to 7.62x39mm bullets, the same fired by Ak-47s. It talks about it in Black Hawk Down. Also like someone said before me the humvee isn't going to be surviving any mines unless its an anti-personnel mine. A lot of the IEDs are constructed with mines.

gilgoul wrote:

Excuse me, but qualifying the M113 of life saver is a kind of joke, it`s aluminium frame, even upgraded, does not withstand an RPG, and te regular one is pierced easily by 762 and even by the ss109 5.56, at least on the sides. Secondly, the HUmmer when armoured constitutes still a pretty good tool for patrolling, please don`t forget that the m113 does`nt enter a lot of narrows streets, isn`t discreet and demands high maintenance.
As for overturning a Hummer, that`s news for me.

The M113 has many flaws but its still safer than a humvee. I'm pretty sure M113s or APCs like the M113 were sent into Mogadishu to resuce the Rangers and Delta operators. They succeeded in pulling the troops out besides the fact that the Somalis had tons of AK-47s and RPG-7s.

mattnwnc03 wrote:

the hummer is not a apc and putting armor kits on it is not helping.its like ww2 the sherman tank, we got caught with our pants down again.

Adding more armor to the hummer isn't meant to make it into an APC, its just to make it a little safer, which it is doing. The Israelis armored a lot of thier humvees and had a lot of success with it.

well thats what they are doing knuckle head well when your driving it along a road and a bomb goes off which one would you wanna be in , an apc or a hummer.id take a apc any day

[Sayeret]

well thats what they are doing knuckle head well when your driving it along a road and a bomb goes off which one would you wanna be in , an apc or a hummer.id take a apc any day

Yeah but what would you want to be in an unarmored humvee or an armored humvee, if you didn't have the choice of an APC.

[maw]

m113's. no comment.
imho we need more M1117's (asv to you and me):

http://www.systems.textron.com/pdf/p..._datasheet.pdf
we've got a bunch of them in iraq already, but i think they're just for the mp's as they always seem to appear after an ambush . supposedly they can take 12.7 from all sides and with the ceramic/composite applique upgrade they can handle 14.5 from the front and from beyond 600 from the sides.