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Thread: China attempts to copy South African weapons now

  1. #1
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    Post China attempts to copy South African weapons now

    China attempts to copy South African weapons now
    Author: idrw team | 7 January 2009
    BY : United Press International

    [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]China has had a number of dealings with South African weapons manufacturers over the past decade, most of which have not resulted in actual weapons purchases. However, several recent China-made military technologies bear suspicious resemblances to their South African counterparts.[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]In 2008, China acquired a fourth-generation air-to-air missile equipped with a thrust-vector control engine. The PL-10, or PL-ASR, is comparable to the U.S.-made AIM-9X air-to-air missile, or AAM.[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]According to a representative from the South African Denel Group, the PL-ASR is almost a replica of its A-Darter AAM. The Denel representative told the author during an interview in Cape Town that the Chinese had contacted the company in 2001 to explore the possibility of importing fifth-generation A-Darter infrared-guided AAMs, which included a TVC propulsion system and pilot helmet-mounted displays.[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]In the end, Denel did not sell the technologies to China, which it regards as its key competitor in selling air-to-air missiles on the African market. Company engineers were therefore surprised to find that the Chinese PL-ASR is nearly identical to the A-Darter in exterior structure, tail engine and even the diameter of the missile body.[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]The company strongly suspects that China reverse-engineered its A-Darter AAM after acquiring its technological materials.[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]This fits a pattern that China has followed in acquiring military technologies from many sources. When seeking a new technology, China contacts a foreign manufacturer and requests substantial technical information about its product, supposedly with the intent to buy. Instead, Chinese engineers study the materials and imitate the relevant concepts and designs.[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Something similar occurred in the course of China’s development of a combat helicopter. In 1996 China and South Africa signed a memorandum to jointly develop a combat helicopter, when China was in the process of building its ZW-10 helicopter.[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]After being given a focused inspection of the Rooivalk combat helicopter’s subsystems, China wanted to purchase one helicopter from Denel, but the South African company considered the purchase of a single aircraft the equivalent of giving away its technologies. As a result, Denel decided not to sell China the helicopter and the cooperation came to an end.[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Another item that appears to have been copied from South Africa is the optical-electronic pod on China’s ZW-9 combat helicopter, which bears a strong resemblance to the Leo-II serial O/E pods produced by the Zeiss Company.[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Technical experts from the Zeiss Company told the author that about seven to eight years ago Zeiss exported two sets of an earlier variant of the Leo-II O/E pods to China, intended for use on helicopters. According to the source, the Chinese side explained that they needed a large number of this type of O/E pods for civilian helicopters, and therefore would like to purchase two sets initially for testing purposes. The source said the Chinese took no further action after receiving the test pods.[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Currently, both the ZW-10 and the night version, the ZW-9, are equipped with O/E detectors very similar to those on the Leo-II.[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]China’s interest is not only in the O/E pod technologies used for helicopters. Chinese manufacturers have also engaged in active discussions with South Africa in hopes of acquiring TV video cameras and second-generation thermal imaging cameras used in Denel’s Seeker II unmanned air vehicle surveillance system.[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]The top military technology that China aspires to acquire from South Africa is without doubt the unmanned air vehicle. China’s New Era Group Corporation had several rounds of negotiations with Denel on the possibility of producing in China two types of Denel UAVs, which were on display at the 2006 Zhuhai Air Show, called the Golden Eagle and the Seeker II.[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]China hopes to obtain the technologies to assemble these two UAVs domestically. However, according to a source from the Denel Group, negotiations on the UAV deals have come to a halt and the company has decided that unless substantial progress is made on these negotiations, the company no longer wants to spend time dealing with the Chinese.[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Denel had a similar experience in trying to negotiate a deal with Chinese company Norinco for its Mokopa anti-tank missiles. The Chinese company expressed an interest in importing Denel’s technologies, but once again the negotiations ended with no result.[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Since 2007, Norinco has attempted to contact the Denel Group again, saying that it wants to import the company’s G5 155-mm howitzer ammunition handling system. But Denel is not eager to enter into an agreement with China on this project; Chinese-made 155-mm howitzers have already appeared in quite a number of countries in Northern Africa, including Algeria, Sudan and Egypt.[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]The source from Denel did disclose that the company has successfully completed a deal with China for its 35-mm multirole machine gun. This technology in fact was exported to China 10 years ago. China seems to have upgraded this 35-mm gun to an air-defense machine gun.[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]China’s New Era Group Corporation has also been negotiating with Denel for the transfer of African Eagle UAV technologies. The Chinese introductory brochure of the cooperation program claims that the African Eagle UAV is capable of taking a payload of 500 kilograms, which could be six Mokopa anti-tank missiles or two Umbani MK 81 precision-guided bombs. The theoretical combat radius of the African Eagle is 750 kilometers.[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]China also hopes to obtain the South African Angel high-altitude and high-speed UAV attacker system. This attacker UAV is capable of carrying precision-guided weapons and attacking targets 1,400 kilometers away. The UAV is also capable of carrying A-Darter AAMs to launch unmanned aerial attacks.[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]The Angel attacker and reconnaissance UAV is equipped with aperture radar and is capable of conducting tactical reconnaissance missions. It can also be fitted with Mokopa active laser-guided anti-tank missiles to attack armored combat groups.[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Nonetheless, the source from Denel disclosed that no substantial progress has been made on this project, indicating it may end up as one more failed deal. It remains to be seen whether China’s latest explorations with the company will yield technological information it can convert to its own purposes, however.[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]--[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3](Andrei Chang is editor-in-chief of Kanwa Defense Review Monthly, registered in Toronto, Canada.)[/SIZE][/FONT]

    ---

    I don't have to comment...

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    ...that's what you get when you do business with the Chi-Com government. It's not like it comes as a surprise!!

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    They'll copy anything dude. They Make their Own M-14's , M-4's, Sukhois, etc.

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    if you think about it the Chinese government is pretty dam smart, slimy, but smart.

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    I bet the PL-ASR is better in 29 of 32 parameters.

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    .... meanwhile they are so paranoid about foreign espionage etc.

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    [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]In the end, Denel did not sell the technologies to China, which it regards as its key competitor in selling air-to-air missiles on the African market. Company engineers were therefore surprised to find that the Chinese PL-ASR is nearly identical to the A-Darter in exterior structure, tail engine and even the diameter of the missile body.[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]The company strongly suspects that China reverse-engineered its A-Darter AAM after acquiring its technological materials.[/FONT][/SIZE]...
    That's pretty good, if they can copied it and built a working model just using information from a sales brochure.

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    Here comes the real frightening thing: What if one day the Chinese copy even human DNA and clone or modify and produce "human beings" that don't look like Chinese anymore for spying purposes and what not. Seeing what they do today already I wouldn't be surprised.

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    Now we are talking.. hang on brb..grabbing my tin foil hat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coolieno99 View Post
    That's pretty good, if they can copied it and built a working model just using information from a sales brochure.
    The sales brochures are available on their website. The SAfricans were naive, and gave them undisclosed technical details before any deals were signed. Either way, if China ever wishes to be respected for their arms industry they are gonna have to invest more in university education and internships at arms manufacturers around the world so that they can learn how to do all of this by themselves. Then again, if they figure this is working for them, why change?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bohemoth View Post
    Here comes the real frightening thing: What if one day the Chinese copy even human DNA and clone or modify and produce "human beings" that don't look like Chinese anymore for spying purposes and what not. Seeing what they do today already I wouldn't be surprised.
    Wait...




    Wat?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
    The sales brochures are available on their website. The SAfricans were naive, and gave them undisclosed technical details before any deals were signed. Either way, if China ever wishes to be respected for their arms industry they are gonna have to invest more in university education and internships at arms manufacturers around the world so that they can learn how to do all of this by themselves. Then again, if they figure this is working for them, why change?
    There was also a suspicious break in at one of Denel's design offices a few years back, with rumours at the time pointing to Chinese industrial espionage in an attempt to gain details on the A-Darter and Rooivalk that had not been supplied with the original technical material. If true, I think that's probably a far more likely reason for them being able to engineer a copy than the details they'd have gleaned from the docs originally supplied by Denel.

    And to clarify some aspects of the story, the 'Angel' UAV is actually the Seraph and the 'African Eagle' is the Bateleur. It is theoretically possible that the Bateleur could carry six Mokopas or two Mk.81 Umbani smart bombs, and the design was certainly carried out with weapons carriage as a design feature, but there has not yet been any serious work on weapons integration. In fact, at the moment the entire project over a year behind schedule and its future is in doubt.

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    China’s Emerging 5th Generation Air-to-Air Missiles
    by Richard Fisher, Jr.
    Published on February 2nd, 2008

    "Internet source imagery from January 4 has offered the first glimpses of what may be China’s emerging 5th generation air-to-air missiles (AAM). One missile, called the PL-ASR or PL-10, shows a very close resemblance to the South African Denel A-Darter AAM. A second image, discovered on a China’s Northwestern University web site in mid-December, shows another missile similar to the radar-guided South African Denel R-Darter, designed in cooperation with Israel. Both of these missiles are likely designed for use with modern Helmet-Mounted Displays (HMD), which enable pilots to “look to kill” their targets. But there is more: additional imagery suggests that a previously reported ramjet powered development of the Chinese Luoyang PL-12 active-radar guided AAM, called the PL-13, could give the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) an AAM that could out-range existing U.S. AAMs."

    More (including possible copying of SA Archer Helmet Display):

    http://www.strategycenter.net/resear...pub_detail.asp

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    Whats the chances that the details might have come via Israel, not SA ?

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    While it is irritating to have your design copied, it is a very natural action. Copying your neighbors more advanced weaponry has been S.O.P. since the beginning of time and will continue until the end. In ten years it will be the west copying designs because the average individual in the west is fat, dumb and happy. We are too complacent and it will be our demise.

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