Yugoslav weapons

[SAWGunner89]

I am a Yugoslav military addict, espiecially their small arms. I personally own an M-48A, M-59/66(possible an M-59/66A1), and a M-70B1. I am also looking for an M-70 pistol. Anyone know of one for sale? Back to the point. I cannot find information in enough detail to satisfy some of the questions I have about Yugoslav weapons. I have checked Ian Hogg's books, Jane's Infantry Weapons books, Jane's Pocket Reference Books, and done countless sources on the internet, and still some questions remain.

1. I hate to drag this back up espiecially amid the controversy it brought up in the past, but what did an M-64 look like. I am aware that some of you say that the M-64 never saw service, and I am willing to accept that but I saw an interesting AK-pattern specimen on a recent documentary. I do not wish to name it to prevent keyboard commandoes from raising their nasty hate-spewing heads, but in it there is a brief shot of a Bosnian soldier firing an extremely long-barreled, milled action, AK-pattern rifle. It does not have a bipod, but the barrel does not seem long-enough to fit an M-65 either. Stock is regular Yugo AK pattern (ruling out an other RPK type weapon). In Ian Hoggs Military Small Arms of the 20th Century, he briefly discuss the M-64 and says describes it as having a longer barrel. I wish I could take a picture of it (and in fact I may if I can freeze frame it again perfectly). Does anyone have any suggestions as to what this may be? I would even settle for a picture of an M-64, as I can determine for myself if that is what it is. (P.S. It is a very noticiable longer barrel)

2. Can you confirm if this is right:
M-70=AK-47
M-70AB=AKS-47
M-70B1=AKM
M-70AB2=AKMS

3. In Ian Hogg's Military Small Arms of the 20th Century, he mentions a Yugo-produced RPD-pattern light machine gun under the designation of the M-64, as well as the "automatic rifle" version of the M-70, the M-65. Has anyone heard of this M-64? This was also mentioned in a book I have about the AK-47 and its "relatives"?

4. Was there a folding stock model of the M-65?

5. Again, Ian Hogg mentions another weapon noone else does. He says that a 9mm version of the M-56 submachine gun was produced as the M-65? Can anyone confirm that. (No offense Ian, RIP).

6. Was there another 9mm service pistol before the M-70(d)?

7. Was the M-88 pistol a Yugoslav service weapon?

8. Was the M-79 recoilless rifle used (not the rocket launcher)?

9. How can you tell the difference between an M-59/66 and a M-59/66A1?

10. Was the M-59 ever accepted for service? Additionally, does anyone know where I can get one, save Canada?

Thank you in advance for an answer to any of these questions. I will try to capture a picture of this unknown AK pattern rifle although I cannot promise this. I would also like any pictures anyone has of Yugoslav small arms, anti-aircraft guns (esp. the M-55 and M-75), anti-tank weapons (M-60, M-79 (recoilless rifle and rocket launcher), M-80, etc). I would like to save all of these. It seems that more and more information about Yugoslavia is lost everyday, and I as an Yugo-loving non-Yugo would like to try and preserve this history. Just recently, a great resource online on Yugoslav weapons was lost. It had many great pictures but had not been updated since 2004. I saved as much as I could before it went offline. If other people won't do this, I want to try and save as much as I can.

I would also be exceptionally thankful for pictures of Yugoslav vehicles. I think the M-60P is underrated. It was a cool little APC.

Sorry, one last question. I read in a very old book on international military logistics vehicles that Yugoslavia license produced Fiat "Jeep" type vehicles. I have only seen pictures of UAZ-469s. Anyone else know of this vehicle.

Feel free to add your own questions.

Please let us act like adults in this thread.

[Zarkus]

6. Was there another 9mm service pistol before the M-70(d)?

7. Was the M-88 pistol a Yugoslav service weapon?
It seems that more and more information about Yugoslavia is lost everyday, and I as an Yugo-loving non-Yugo would like to try and preserve this history. Just recently, a great resource online on Yugoslav weapons was lost. It had many great pictures but had not been updated since 2004. I saved as much as I could before it went offline. If other people won't do this, I want to try and save as much as I can.

Sorry, one last question. I read in a very old book on international military logistics vehicles that Yugoslavia license produced Fiat "Jeep" type vehicles. I have only seen pictures of UAZ-469s. Anyone else know of this vehicle.

As a "Former Yugoslavian" myself, i'll try to answer a few of your questions.

The standard sidearm of the Yugoslav Army was the Crvena Zastava produced version of the Russian Tokarev TT-33... marked M-57, also in 7.62x25mm.
Zastava also produced commercial versions of the pistol in 9mm Para (M70A) and later in 10mm Auto (Z-10).

The M-70 pistol in 7.65mm (32 acp) & 9mm Short (380) was issued to officers.
The M-88 was also a commercial version of the M-57 in 9mm para... the only difference was the shorter barrel. It was never a service weapon in the Yugoslav Army. It was developed in the late eighties (just before the brake up).

Zastava produced the Fiat 1101 "Campagnola" under licence (Yugoslav designation AR-55).... also later the Fiat 1107 "Nuova Campagnola"

You can see the vehicle here... it's a site about a Yugoslav Army liaison equipment.
http://www.radista.info/radio_telepr...at_Zastava.jpg
http://www.radista.info/rtps_strana.htm
You can even buy one...
http://www.svetautomobila.com/oglas1575.htm

There are lot of forums in the Former republics that have info/discusions about the weapons used in the National Yugoslav Army... but they are in Serbian/Croatian/Slovenian/Macedonian.

I hope i was of some help.

[SAWGunner89]

Thanks. Every little thing is helpful.

So the M-70(d)(aka M-70A) was never used, just the M-57? (In the reference books I have, what you call the M-70A is shown as the M-70(d), but it makes more sense as the M-70A). That is very interesting.

Yes, I am at a bit of a disadvantage as I cannot yet speak Serbian-Croatian (I am waiting for the chance to go down to a language school in Georgia where they actually teach Serbian-Croatian). It maybe a while before I get that opportunity, unfortunately.

Any idea how much one of those Fiats goes for? That would be a kick to have.

Thank you again.

[Zarkus]

It might have been used (the M70(d)/M70A), but not in the regular forces. The official side arm caliber until the brake up of Yugoslavia was the Soviet 7.62x25. Whether it was used during the Balkan wars... i can't say, it's possible. But as i understand, you are only interested in JNA (Jugoslovenska Narodna Armija/Yugoslavian National Army) weapons.

Come to think of it.... Zastava produced several versions of the M70 pistol in 9mm PARA. Some had the safety mounted on the slide, some on the frame... maybe that's the reason you found different markings, M70(d) vs. M70A i know of. Or, the (d) could stand for "dugi" or "long" (meaning 9mm long, popular term for the ammo in YU) in Serbian, since Zastava also produced the small M70 in 32 and 380.
The one Zastava-Arms produces today is the M70A.
http://www.zastava-arms.co.rs/english/civilni.htm
In the States, you can buy the M88 true EAA. And Marstar in Canada sold the M70 9mm... when they were in stock.
http://www.eaacorp.com/zastava-m88-TP.html
http://www.marstar.ca/9x19mm-Tokarevs.htm



Zastava M70A with rubber grips.



Zastava M70(d)



The "small" Zastava M70 in 7.65 (32) or 9x17 (380)



Disassembled M88 in 9mm PARA.

And about the Fiat Campagnola.... i wouldn't know how much they go for these days, since they are scarce... but the one on the link i posted is sold for 2650 euro or 3480 in dollars, which is ridiculous if you ask me. i've ridden in one of those things.... and i can tell you... there are far better ways to travel from A to B.

[SAWGunner89]

The M-70(d) (d for dugi) would make sense. A source also claim that the M-70 pattern in .380 was the M-70(k). I wonder if k is short for short in Serbian-Croatian.

You are right in your assesment that I am interested primarily in the JNA. However the Balkan Wars do interest me, though they are very tragic for all involved.

I have seen those M-88s for sale from EAA. They are pretty well-priced, and Tokarovs are pretty reliable weapons. I was unaware that the M-70 was once offered by Marstar. The Z-99 series was offered for sale here until recently by another distributor. Although unrelated to the current discussion, I thought that was interesting.

Nice pictures by the way.

Yeah, a good firm suspension is something lacking in most military vehicles. I personally think that $3480 dollars is about normal for such a vehicle here in the US, but I am sure that importation duties and "street legalization" would add on a good deal. Do you know if it is a maintenance nightmare?

Also, I just found out that the M-59/66 I have is the M-59/66A1 variant. I read on another forum that the M-59/66A1 differs in having tritium night sites attached. Can you Zarkus or anyone else confirm this?

[konkurs]

Hello SAWGunner89!

Let start chronologlicaly.

Yugo rifles adopted in army service and produced in great numbers

1. M-48 (Muser copy)
2. M-59 (SKS copy)
3. M-59/66 (SKS with rifle grenade sight and attachment)
4. M-70 (AK copy) in various versions, milled steel, stamped reciver, folding stock, wooden stock, etc

Sniper rifles

M-48 with Yugo optic M-52 (copy of Soviet PU)
M-69 (Mauser rifle look a like hunting carabine)
M-76 (AK system in 8x57mm)

LMG

M-53( copy of MG-42)
M-72 (copy of RPK) in various version like M-70 (most of the parts was interchangeable)
M-84 (copy of PKM)

SMG

M-49 (clone of PPŠ-41 and Beretta M-38)
M-49/57 (improved M-49)
M-56 (look like Mp-40 but different mechanism)
M-84 (copy of Czech M-61 Skorpion)

Pistols

M-57 (copy of M-33 TT)
M-70 (simplified and compacted M-57 in 7,65 mm, only for officers)

That is all what is officilay adopted in JNA and covered by manuals.

Prototypes

M-64 (AK system) in various versions (short barell, long barell, 20 rd mag, 30rd mag, with or without RG sights, with muzzle break or not, etc

M-65 (RPK system) with handle for quick change barell

Export rifles

M-77 (AK in 308), LMG and sniper version also
M-80 (AK in 223)
M-82 (RPK in 223)
M-85 (Krinkov in 223)
M-90 (AK in 223, improved M-80)

There is M-65 export version of M-56 SMG in 9mm.

Some projects was destroyed by disolving of Yugoslavia like sniper rifle M-91 (M-76 in 7,62x54mm) and M-92 (Krinkov in 7,62x39) and today is offered for export.

M-59/66A1 differs in having tritium night sites attached, yes this is correct.

M-88 pistol was civil compact version of M-57 pistol.

M-79 recoilless rifle was not adopted because M-79 rocket launcher had beter range and penetration and it was offered for export.

I hope I helped.

Best regards.

[Royal]

The M-70(d) (d for dugi) would make sense. A source also claim that the M-70 pattern in .380 was the M-70(k). I wonder if k is short for short in Serbian-Croatian.

Short in Serbo-Croat is kratak so that is possible, but its not a designation that I ever saw there - at least not in the same way that k (for kurtz) is used with German weapons.

[SAWGunner89]

Konkurs, I had heard that the M-91 had been accepted as the new sniper rifle for the Serbian army. I know it is still produced by Zastava. Check their website: www.zastava-arms.co.rs
Had you heard this?

But you have all helped a great deal.

I think Zarkus made a great point about the designation most Western references use (the M-70(d), M-70(k), etc.) were perhaps export designations. Espiecially since the d and k line up so great with the Serbian-Croatian for the 9mm long and 9mm short, which apparently are names for 9x19mm Parabellum and 9x17mm. It does not seem like that would be a designation for the military(it did not fit the pattern), and though I did question it when I first saw it I saw nothing to the contrary in any Western service. Now knowing it was never accepted into service with the JNA, I am quite convinced that that was an export designation, but I will leave that to the experts. Does this seem to be an export designation?

Anyone have any expertise on the M-76? Is it a good weapon? It is possible to get one in the United States, but they approach close to $4,000 dollars US, which is quite expensive in my book.

Kind of ironic that a shoulder-fired rocket would have better range and armor penetration than a dedicated recoilless rifle. I guess that shows how far anti-armor weapons have come in offering better performance in a much smaller package. Well, the M-79 is still a "very large weapon". I am constantly shocked when I see photos of it. In some it looks rather compact, while in others it dwarfs the men who carry it.

If the M-65 was a prototype and had a removeable barrel, does the M-72 have a removable barrel.

Konkurs, do you have manuals for all of those weapons? If so, wow, that is a pretty great collection.

I am still trying to get a picture of that unusual AK derivative I saw in that documentary. Hopefully I should have it by tonight.

Thanks again guys. As I have said before, every little bit is appreciated.

[Piggy]

M-72 did not have exchangeable barrel. Barrel has cooling segment at the very beginning to reduce heating of the barrel.

[konkurs]

re/Konkurs, I had heard that the M-91 had been accepted as the new sniper rifle for the Serbian army. I know it is still produced by Zastava. /

I know, but we are talking about Yugoslavian army weapons, which means all thing until year of 1991. when civil war started, Yugoslavia disolved, and JNA became Serbian army.

[eighty-one]

As to how the M.64 looked like...

As per caption: Automatic rifle 7.62 mm M.64A. Model with separate cylindrical handle on the bolt carrier, rear folding sight, grenade launcher sight as gas port regulator, grenade launcher attachment and 30 rounds magazine.

upper: Automatic rifle M.64B. Similar to previous model 64A. Folding stock made of steel tubing as on submachine gun M.56.
lower: Automatic rifle M.64A. Model with grenade launcher attachment, longer barrel and 20 round magazine.

Automatic rifle M.64A. Model with rear tangent sight, longer barrel, flash hider, simple gas port regulator and 20 round magazine.

upper: Automatic rifle M.64A. Model with shorter barrel and grenade launcher sight as gas port regulator.
lower: Automatic rifle M.64B. Final model. Machined receiver, wooden handle, separate cylindrical handle on the bolt carrier and folding stock made of steel tubing.

These rifles are part of the collection of FNP's museum(FNP - Fabrika Namenskih Proizvoda - Factory for Dedicated Products(?)). FNP was part of ZCZ name, i.e. FNP - Zavodi Crvena Zastava, Kragujevac.

[konkurs]

Great post eighty-one!

As I said, lot of versions of M-64.

I am very sad when I saw how gun dealers cheat people in US selling early version of M-70 (milleed reciver) as M-64!

[SandBagger]

whats the difference with the m48 and m48a?

[nyati13]

Anyone have any expertise on the M-76? Is it a good weapon? It is possible to get one in the United States, but they approach close to $4,000 dollars US, which is quite expensive in my book.

I have an import model of one of those, US made receiver and barrel, everything else original M76 (except the trigger group, needed to get the US parts # for compliance...). Didn't cost me anywhere near 4K.

It shoots really well, decent recoil but the gun is so heavy it soaks up the worst of the kick from the 8mm. Very reliable (duh, it's an AK), but also reasonably accurate.

[eighty-one]

whats the difference with the m48 and m48a?

IIRC the differences were minor (introduced to ease manufacture - stamped magazine parts etc.). On another note, a version of M48A was developed that featured cuts in the stock, more stamped parts, flash hider etc., but it never left the development stage and was never adopted.