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Thread: Georgian Army, Navy and Air Force

  1. #796
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elbs View Post
    How about posting some Georgian pictures instead of continuing the Georgian-Russian lovefest...

    Accordion to caption: Su-25KMs under construction



    Nice photos, date? Hard to say whether they are being finished, some scenes in Russian factories during 90s remind me of this, unfinished airframes from Soviet times, anyways those little props on the left side look nice. Yak-58s I think.

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    Senior Member xav's Avatar
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    So is this TAM factory?

    That's a lot of Skorpions right there!

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    Quote Originally Posted by PCrudy View Post
    If the Georgians want a jet fighter, they should look at the Mig-21 Bisons that India is about to retire. They're BVR capable, and have the same radar as the one used in Israeli F-16's.
    That's like putting lipstick on pig. Those things (MiG-21) are close to 50 years old and crashing like crazy in India. Georgia can do better. Also Georgia should stop thinking like Russia is their only enemy. They should worry about other threats, they can't do much (militarily) about Russia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xav View Post
    So is this TAM factory?

    That's a lot of Skorpions right there!
    Well, a lot of Su-25s, Skorpion airframe is basically identical.

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    8 in total in the pic? Is this a post war pic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TR1 View Post
    Nice photos, date? Hard to say whether they are being finished, some scenes in Russian factories during 90s remind me of this, unfinished airframes from Soviet times, anyways those little props on the left side look nice. Yak-58s I think.
    I don't know the date. I vaguely remember something about IAI personnel being mentioned.
    Last edited by Elbs; 09-19-2009 at 05:23 PM. Reason: ID FAIL!

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    Quote Originally Posted by PCrudy View Post
    If the Georgians want a jet fighter, they should look at the Mig-21 Bisons that India is about to retire. They're BVR capable, and have the same radar as the one used in Israeli F-16's. However, while a fighter would be useful in preventing intussions into Georgian airspace, they would do little against a full fledged russian invasion.
    It's a good point about preventing intrusions. But really, acquiring 2nd hand MiG-21 Bisons, with their long times in service and shady safety records, makes even less sense than F-16s. With the MiG-21s, even under the best possible conditions, and even assuming that Georgia is not fighting Russia; the other side will likely have more capable aircraft anyway, thus negating one of the only possible scenarios where fighter aircraft could be of any use to Georgia. Perhaps MiG-21s are an idea, especially if they can get a good quantity on the cheap, but not ones that have seen as much flight time as the Indian models, and certainly they will have to undergo some extensive upgrades and modernization.

    They should focus on obtaining attack planes first. While the A-10 would be ideal, this is an unrealistic option, since the U.S has never exported that type and it is no longer in production. More viable options would be more Su-25's, Embraer Super Tucano, Cessna AC-208 Caravan, Beechcraft AT-6, or the Boeing OV-10 Bronco.
    Best they just focus their resources on the Su-25 and its various upgrades. Georgian pilots already have decades of experience with it, plenty of spare parts, logistics are already established, and whats more they have domestic production facilities already for them (albeit they were heavily damaged in the 2008 war).

    They should also think about arming civil aviation aircraft, like the Tamil Tigers did in Sri Lanka.
    For what possible reason?

    The advantage of operating rugged, propeller driven attack aircraft is that in the event of a Russian attack, Georgian airfields would almost certainly be desroyed in the first day or two of fighting. By using rugged attack aircraft that can land on roads or fields, the Georgians can spread out their air force throughout the countryside, making them difficult to target and hit on the ground, and enabling the air force to countinue operations once their primary airfields have been destroyed.
    Something that the Su-25 is already perfectly suited for, actually more so than any of the other aircraft you mentioned including I suspect the unnamed propeller driven attack aircraft. And the Su-25 has jet engines, a range of armament/avionics/radar options, and plenty of armour to boot.

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    I am sure those "Scorpions" were in the same shape in, lets say, 1992 when the spare supply finally stoped. One needs to understand that this is an assembly plant - just the final link of a construction chain. In order to make a Su-25 this plant had to get a parts from dozens of plants all over the SU. Those airframes are obviously lacking their parts and Georgia(and even Ukraine) cant make 100% set for assembly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TR1 View Post
    Dude....just stop.
    Why are you trolling here? As to your wanting an anlysis of Russia using Soviet tactics..here one source, which I'm sure you'll object to...there are countless more offering the same perspective.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/wo...7military.html

    Ok..I'm done with off topic..

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    Senior Member Elbs's Avatar
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    Those Su-25s are definitely at the Tblisi aircraft factory. Here's another pic of an US official on a visit: note the building and Su's in background.


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    Quote Originally Posted by megjur View Post
    Why are you trolling here? As to your wanting an anlysis of Russia using Soviet tactics..here one source, which I'm sure you'll object to...there are countless more offering the same perspective.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/wo...7military.html

    Ok..I'm done with off topic..
    Ny times......still laughable.
    Absolutely overwhelming force LOL, right thats is why they were outnumbered during the critical 3-4 days of fighting.


    EDIT: sorry for OT, I am done arguing with this child.

  12. #807
    Senior Member Elbs's Avatar
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    The picture I posted of a US official at the Tbilisi plant is dated from October 2008. The official is Deputy Secretary of Commerce John J. Sullivan so it seems the factory is in reasonably good condition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elbs View Post
    The picture I posted of a US official at the Tbilisi plant is dated from October 2008. The official is Deputy Secretary of Commerce John J. Sullivan so it seems the factory is in reasonably good condition.
    Yes it should be...the upgrade and service of Georgian Planes takes place there. However, I don't know if they can finish up an unused airframe. That's possible though, if they get engines from Ukraine possibly.
    Last edited by Kilimunati; 09-19-2009 at 09:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamming_Python View Post
    It's a good point about preventing intrusions. But really, acquiring 2nd hand MiG-21 Bisons, with their long times in service and shady safety records, makes even less sense than F-16s. With the MiG-21s, even under the best possible conditions, and even assuming that Georgia is not fighting Russia; the other side will likely have more capable aircraft anyway, thus negating one of the only possible scenarios where fighter aircraft could be of any use to Georgia. Perhaps MiG-21s are an idea, especially if they can get a good quantity on the cheap, but not ones that have seen as much flight time as the Indian models, and certainly they will have to undergo some extensive upgrades and modernization.
    Russia is not Georgia's only threat. Georgia deffinetly needs a interceptor aircraft.

    Best they just focus their resources on the Su-25 and its various upgrades. Georgian pilots already have decades of experience with it, plenty of spare parts, logistics are already established, and whats more they have domestic production facilities already for them (albeit they were heavily damaged in the 2008 war).
    They already have the scorpion upgrade and I do not know how much better it can get from their. And those pictures that elbs posted are supposedly from the factory on October 2008, after the war, the facility is obviously in good condition.


    Something that the Su-25 is already perfectly suited for, actually more so than any of the other aircraft you mentioned including I suspect the unnamed propeller driven attack aircraft. And the Su-25 has jet engines, a range of armament/avionics/radar options, and plenty of armour to boot.
    Georgia still needs UAV that can bomb, not only for themselves but for external sales possibly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by megjur View Post
    Curvature of the Earth affects the range a radar can detect an aerial target. The higher above ground the radar is mounted, the further the radar horizon is, but even the tallest surface based radars (ship mounted radars) are limited to horizon radar ranges of about 40k's. Now add in the Caucusus between Georgia and Russia and low flying jets and the S-400 effectiveness is limited. Plus the Russians wouldn't dare move them over the Caucasus because the sheer size of the S-400 would make them hard to defend against an ARM. So an multipurpose jet, like an F-16 or a Mirage 2000 would be effective against Russian attack jets, and ground targets. The taking out of airfields however is another matter, and Georgia would have to work at dispersing their aircraft better.
    Well to be honest I'm not an expert on this, you may be right. However, I wouldn't deny that low-flying jets are Georgia's best bet to avoid radar coverage; which is why it makes the most sense for them just to stick to Su-25s and Mi-24s and forget about other attack aircraft.

    The F-16, correct me if I'm wrong, is far more effective at higher altitudes than at lower ones. Even if we don't mention dog-fighting and stick to talking about BVR combat, the F-16 has it's own radar systems, which while they would be a lot higher up from the ground than any ground-based radars even if the F-16 was hugging the surface so to speak, are also a lot less powerful, and so I would reason that the same logic would apply to the effectiveness of the F-16s own radar being hampered by the Caucasus, etc... Of course, being lower to the ground, means that the F-16s would have a lot less space and ability for evasive maneuvers, and while they may avoid the more powerful SAM systems, they would become the target of AAA fire and smaller missile complexes.

    Finally, the S-300/400 systems can also be based in North Ossetia, which although over the Caucasus ridge, is still very close to Georgia, yet at the same time out of the range of the majority of Georgian weapon systems and capabilities I would imagine, as South Ossetia is out of their control and not a place where they can place artillery. It's also a possibility I think, to forget about moving the whole S-300/S-400 system to anywhere near that area, and simply place radars there instead, in North and South Ossetia, that would guide S-300/400 missiles that would be launched from much further away. I don't know how viable that would be, but I assume it's possible, and the worst that could happen is that Russia would lose a few radars.

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