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Thread: Trans-atlantic comparisons

  1. #1
    Senior Member Mackie's Avatar
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    Default Trans-atlantic comparisons

    I thought Peter Baldwins article could enlighten us in stereotypes about the US and Europe:

    TRANS-ATLANTIC COMPARISONS (3)

    Is the US Really a Nation of God-Fearing Darwin-Haters?

    By Peter Baldwin
    Is it only Europeans who want to save the environment and only Americans who discount Darwin? In the final part of his series on trans-Atlantic differences, American historian Peter Baldwin explains why these stereotypes don't work - and what the real differences between Old Europe and America are.
    In a three-part essay for SPIEGEL ONLINE, American historian Peter Baldwin argues that the EU and the US are much more similar than they think. You can read part one of his essay here and part two here.
    In ecological terms, America is thought to be wasteful -- big cars, big houses, long commutes, cold winters, hot summers, pigate habits. Such perceptions of the country have combined with the Bush administration's cozy relationship with the oil industry and its refusal to sign the Kyoto Protocol to paint the nation as an environmental black hole. Once again, the numbers tell a different story.


    Although oil use per capita is high in America, measured as a function of economic production (in other words, putting the input in relation to the output), it remains within European norms and, indeed, lower than Portugal, Greece, Belgium, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and Iceland. Between 1990 and 2002, America's carbon dioxide output rose, but per unit of GDP it fell by 17 percent -- a greater reduction than in nine western European countries.
    In its output of renewable energy, the US is in the middle of the spectrum on all counts, whether biogas, solid biomass energy, geothermal or wind. American spending (public and private) on pollution abatement and control as a percentage of GDP is bested only in Austria, Denmark, Italy and the Netherlands.


    Despite the myths of a hyper-motorized nation, Americans own fewer passenger cars per head than the French, Austrians, Swiss, Germans, Luxembourgers and Italians. Per capita, Americans rely on their cars more than Europeans. But adjusting for the size of the country, automobile usage is lower only in Finland, Sweden and Greece. Similarly, Americans produce a lot of waste per capita, though the Norwegians are worse, and the Irish and Danes are close competitors. But they recycle as well as the Finns and the French, and better than the British, Greeks and Portuguese. Since 1990, Americans' production of waste has scarcely gone up per capita, while in all European nations for which figures are available, there have been big increases -- 70 percent in Spain, almost 60 percent in Italy and over 30 percent in Sweden.
    "The Old World developed on the basis of a coalition -- uneasy but understood -- between humanity and its surroundings," the Guardian reassures its recycling readership. "The settlement of the US was based on conquest, not just of the indigenous peoples, but also of the terrain." Yet, despite such common European conceptions, American conservation efforts are strong by European standards.
    The environmental activist Jeremy Rifkin insists that Europeans -- unlike Americans -- have "a love for the intrinsic value of nature. One can see it in Europeans' regard for the rural countryside and their determination to maintain natural landscape." Actually, the percentage of national territory protected in the US is about double that of France, Britain or even Sweden.
    And conventional American farmers are far less chemicalized than their European colleagues. Thanks partly to their use of GM crops, they use pesticides sparingly. The Italians use over seven times as much, the Belgians even more.



    Nationalism & Religion
    Despite perceived differences in its economy or care for the environment, perhaps the most fundamental assumed gap between the US and Europe is in values. Americans are said to be nationalistic and religious, while Europeans are post-nationalist and secular. But even here there is reason to doubt the stereotypes.




    Yes, Americans are patriotic and nationalistic but, according to the World Values Survey (undertaken between 1999 and 2001), not more than some Europeans. Unsurprisingly, Germans are least proud of their nation, and rather unexpectedly, the Portuguese -- not the Americans -- are most, with the Irish tied for second place. Granted, Americans are more likely to think that their country is better than most others. But more Portuguese, Danes and Spaniards feel that the world would be improved if other people were like them, and a larger fraction of Americans admits that there are aspects of their country that shame them than there is in Germany, Austria, Spain, France, Denmark and Finland. And the Finns, Danes, Norwegians and Swedes are all more willing to fight for their country than the Americans.
    Even on religion, there is reason to question an absolute polarity between the US and Europe. "Religion is palpable in US schools, places of work and public institutions," claims the Guardian. "God is invoked by soldiers and politicians in a way that would seem inappropriate in Britain." Puzzling, then, that Britain's head of state is known as the "Defender of the Faith," and the established church has 26 seats in the upper legislature.
    The American observer of Europe is often baffled at European claims to secularism since official expressions of religion are so public and yet -- apparently -- so taken for granted. A 10th-century depiction of the crucifixion, for example, is part of every Danish passport, regardless of whether its bearer is -- as many nowadays are -- a pious Muslim.
    American church attendance and religious belief is not off the European scale if one compares it with Europe's Catholic regions. A smaller percentage of Americans consider themselves religious than the Portuguese and Italians. Proportionately fewer Americans say they believe in God than the Irish and Portuguese.
    Moreover, sociologists tend to explain high American church attendance as the outcome of market as much as spiritual forces. Greater competition has led to a richer variety and higher quality of offerings, while Europe's state-monopoly religions struggle to provide for their citizens' spiritual needs. Thus, if the issue is thus of supply and less of demand, the contrast between Europe and America may not be between religious and secular mindsets but, rather, between how -- if at all -- largely equivalent spiritual needs are fulfilled.



    This is certainly a conclusion suggested by looking at attitudes to science across the Atlantic. Without question, Americans are more likely to believe in Creationism than Europeans. The modern American creationist, interestingly enough, no longer takes scripture as sufficient reason to believe the Biblical account of the origins of the world. The debate is, instead, conducted on the turf of science, with creationists attempting to argue the fine points of the age of the fossil record, suggesting that orthodox evolution has gaps as a seamless explanation, and otherwise indicating their acceptance that the modern world speaks the language of science. The realm of scientific quackery in Europe, on the other hand, is much wider than in the US. Consider the sway of self-evidently daft positions like anti-vaccinationism among the Hampstead Bildungsbürgertum or the equally irrational rejection of the fruits of scientific reasoning, like the anti-GM (genetically modified) movement. In several European nations, astrology is more widely believed in than in the US, and homeopathy is relied upon much more often in Europe.
    So if Americans are, on the whole, more religious than most Europeans, it does not follow that they have less overall faith in science. Societies with a strong faith in science can also have strong religious beliefs. True, proportionately fewer Americans firmly agree with the Darwinian theory of evolution than any Europeans other than in Northern Ireland.
    But, in other respects, Americans believe in the Enlightenment project of human reason's ability to understand and master nature. They fall in the European middle ground in approving animal testing to save human lives. Perhaps most tellingly, more American pupils agree with the statement that science helps them understand the world than in any European nation other than Italy and Portugal.
    ABOUT PETER BALDWIN

    Peter Baldwin, (b. Dec. 22, 1956 in Ann Arbor, Michigan), is a professor of European history at the University of California, Los Angeles. His research focuses on the development of the social welfare state. In September 2009, Oxford University Press will publish his most recent book, "The Narcissism of Minor Differences: How America and Europe Are Alike."

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...628389,00.html

    BTW: Sime intresting statistics to click:
    http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fo...Article=628389

  2. #2
    Senior Member joka's Avatar
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    I'm sure he has a point, but these statistics are ridiculous. He picks and chooses some random indicators and avoids the most obvious ones. If you want to argue that The US is an average European country when it comes to emissions; Let's see the emissions/capita numbers, not oil usage per unit of GDP. But yes, some Europeans could do a little mirror watching.

    Also, Peter Baldwin, give two and take one, not give one and take ten.

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    Senior Member jetsetter's Avatar
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    Some need to get it out of their mind that the United States being different than Europe is some terrible thing. It isn't and I hope the United States stays different from Europe for some time.

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    Senior Member CMNot's Avatar
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    It always grates me that people see America as one whole entity. When it simply isn't. The country differs and changes massively depending on where you are in it.

    It's even more grating that people can simplify dozens of languages and cultures into one when it comes to Europe.

    Such simplification is utterly, utterly pointless. On both fronts.

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    Senior Member Mu-Meson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joka View Post
    I'm sure he has a point, but these statistics are ridiculous. He picks and chooses some random indicators and avoids the most obvious ones. If you want to argue that The US is an average European country when it comes to emissions; Let's see the emissions/capita numbers, not oil usage per unit of GDP. But yes, some Europeans could do a little mirror watching.

    Also, Peter Baldwin, give two and take one, not give one and take ten.
    So you pick one statistic, and argue about its form? What about recycling, waste production, renewable energy, automobile use, car ownership, pesticide use, nature conservation? Fact is, Europeans could do with learning a little bit more about America beyond the lazy assumptions of the Guardian and alike. Of course, the reverse is also true, but European claims of superiority are generally way more insufferable.

    And oil use per unit of GDP shows economic efficiency in using that oil to create wealth. It is just as valid a statistic as per capita, it just provides different information.

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    I think the antiamerican bashing is just ridiculous but the statistics he uses are at least questionable...

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    Senior Member Atlantic Friend's Avatar
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    Although oil use per capita is high in America, measured as a function of economic production (in other words, putting the input in relation to the output), it remains within European norms and, indeed, lower than Portugal, Greece, Belgium, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and Iceland. Between 1990 and 2002, America's carbon dioxide output rose, but per unit of GDP it fell by 17 percent -- a greater reduction than in nine western European countries.
    Certainly an indicator of GDP growth, and one consistent with the growing importance of non-industrial services in the economy, but hardly one of eco-friendliness.

  8. #8
    Senior Member CMNot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mu-Meson View Post
    ...but European claims of superiority are generally way more insufferable.
    That depends on what side of the fence you sit

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