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Thread: Not So Fast With Those Electric Cars

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    Senior Member Zoomie's Avatar
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    Default Not So Fast With Those Electric Cars

    Not So Fast With Those Electric Cars


    Alternative Energy: A government report says reliance on electric cars will do little to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and may merely shift our dependence on foreign sources from one set of dictators to another. It's a beautiful theory — highways full of electric cars emitting no greenhouse gases or pollutants after being plugged into an outlet in our garages overnight. The problem, according to a new Government Accountability Office report, is that the effort may only shift the problem somewhere else.
    "If you are using coal-fired power plants, and half the country's electricity comes from coal-powered plants, are you just trading one greenhouse gas emitter for another?" asks Mark Gaffigan, co-author of the GAO report. The report itself notes: "Reductions in CO2 emissions depend on generating electricity used to charge the vehicles from lower-emission sources of energy."
    The GAO report says a plug-in compact car, if recharged at an outlet drawing its power from coal, provides a carbon dioxide savings of only 4% to 5%. If the feeling of saving the environment from driving an electric car causes people to drive more, that small amount of savings vanishes entirely.
    It's much the same effect we saw when the Corporate Fuel Economy Standards were passed in the '70s. Aside from forcing us into less-safe downsized vehicles that increased highway fatalities, the promise of more miles per gallon caused people to drive more miles. The promised energy independence never materialized as we imported more foreign oil than ever before.
    Okay, so how about a zero-emission source of electricity — nuclear power? The administration has done little to promote it beyond lip service. The administration recently killed the safest place on the planet to store what is erroneously called nuclear waste — at the nuclear repository that was being built at Yucca Mountain, Nev.
    This "waste" is in the form of spent fuel rods the French and others have safely stored and reprocessed. These rods still contain most of their original energy and reprocessing them makes nuclear power renewable as well as pollution-free. The French get 80% of their electricity from nukes, and nobody in Paris glows in the dark.
    They will have a place to plug in their electric cars, but right now we don't. The government is promoting solar and wind, which is fine if the sun is shining and the wind is blowing. Both have their own environmental drawbacks.
    Both require huge amounts of land. Wind turbines tend to slice and dice birds, including endangered species. Solar panels of the size that might be competitive require huge amounts of water to clean. Water is a rare commodity in the areas the sun shines most — the arid land of the West and Southwest.
    There are the hazards of the cars themselves. We don't yet fully comprehend the hazards to drivers, passengers and first responders after, say, a collision between an electric clown car and an 18-wheeler. Then there's a whole new problem of disposing of a new generation of batteries using lithium.
    As for the lithium, Bolivia, under the thumb of its leftist leader Evo Morales, has about half the world's proven reserves. "The United States has supplies of lithium, but if demand for lithium exceeded domestic supplies," warns the GAO, "the U.S. could substitute reliance on one foreign source (oil) for another (lithium)."
    Then there are environmental consequences. Just as coal and oil must be extracted from the earth, so must lithium. "Extracting lithium from locations where it is abundant, such as South America, could pose environmental challenges that would damage the ecosystem in this area."
    While advertised as "zero emission," electric cars have their own set of issues. As physicist Amory Lovins once put it, "Zero-emission vehicles are actually 'elsewhere-emission' vehicles."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoomie View Post
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    What is the solution then? Alternatives must be found to petrol for transportation, it will not last forever. Electric cars have to be the future. There are alternatives to Lithium batteries, NiMH for example, hydrogen fuel cells, and others in the pipeline (carbon based batteries). Electric cars also provide the opportunity to reduce pollution by substituting coal power plants with nuclear/wind/hydro/solar, no such opportunity exists with petrol cars. Finally, electric cars allow the use of a KERS system, recharging when braking, which will gain in efficiency as the technology matures, no such solution is available to petrol based cars.

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    Senior Member Macs.'s Avatar
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    Nothing new.

    This is known in the auto industry since decades. I have contact to a number of engineers at Mercedes and Porsche, people that actually work on hybrids and electro drive trains... Everyone will tell you that in it's current form it's not the future. It's a thing that is being done right now because the public/customer demands it. It's simply hip right now.

    If there suddenly was a massive use of electric cars, there would be a massive front of problems. Starting with the power network.

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    The way I see it the difference between electric cars and current fossil fuel cars is that electric car will run no matter how the electricity was generated. It can be generated in environment friendly or unfriendly way but it doesn't affect the car. Car that burns fossil fuels is always environment unfrienly and you can't do anything about it, so it doesn't help if we find out better ways to generate electricity, and they don't encourage development as much.

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    Going Rogue seraosha's Avatar
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    What exactly happened to the "fuel cell" that was getting so much press not so long ago?

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    Miss Convicted 2009 SBL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seraosha View Post
    What exactly happened to the "fuel cell" that was getting so much press not so long ago?
    Hydrogen does not occur in significant amounts in nature, so it has to be manufactured. The manufacture of hydrogen requires the use of more traditional forms of energy (i.e. fossil fuels) and generally costs more to make, energy-wise, than it can return.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Basillicus View Post
    The way I see it the difference between electric cars and current fossil fuel cars is that electric car will run no matter how the electricity was generated. It can be generated in environment friendly or unfriendly way but it doesn't affect the car. Car that burns fossil fuels is always environment unfrienly and you can't do anything about it, so it doesn't help if we find out better ways to generate electricity, and they don't encourage development as much.
    There you go -- the voice of brain cells in action -- a form of energy often lost in the politicking on this issue.

    There are technological and biochem/biofuel and nanotech advances being made all the time. Get a well-functioning electric car and science will drive it in new directions, possibly dragging politics with it.

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    Senior Member Mackie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macs. View Post
    Nothing new.

    This is known in the auto industry since decades. I have contact to a number of engineers at Mercedes and Porsche, people that actually work on hybrids and electro drive trains... Everyone will tell you that in it's current form it's not the future. It's a thing that is being done right now because the public/customer demands it. It's simply hip right now.

    If there suddenly was a massive use of electric cars, there would be a massive front of problems. Starting with the power network.
    And while the world talks about electric cars, boards at Stuttgarts University is still filled by Mercedes student research projects on fuel cells.

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    I don't care if my car is driven down the road by coal. I want an electric car to become independant from OPEC. We will be shifting from a foriegn dictator to a domestic producer that has to abide by our laws. Way better long term.

    -- Bluelight

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    Senior Member Macs.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mackie View Post
    And while the world talks about electric cars, boards at Stuttgarts University is still filled by Mercedes student research projects on fuel cells.
    Exactly. But still Mercedes has to bog out a Hybrid now, it's simply what the public wants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macs. View Post
    Exactly. But still Mercedes has to bog out a Hybrid now, it's simply what the public wants.
    If Hybrids are so "popular", why do SUVs and pickup trucks outsell them 2 to 1. And why did Toyoto cancel their new hybrid plant?

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    It's not necessarily all about lower emissions; reduced oil consumption is a big one. Most people don't seem to realize that plastics are generally derived from oil; if we burn it all up fueling vehicles, we can't drive OR make plastics anymore. An exaggeration, I know, but a necessary distinction.

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    Senior Member Macs.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redvand View Post
    If Hybrids are so "popular", why do SUVs and pickup trucks outsell them 2 to 1. And why did Toyoto cancel their new hybrid plant?
    Toyota's Prius has been a hot seller in bad times.

    Pickups and SUVs can be hybrids, too...

    The Hybrid trend is just in the beginning right now, and market research simply shows that people want this right now.

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    Pining for a custom title PEMM's Avatar
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    Electric cars with nuclear energy, in hundred years fusion energy, is the best option. Together with improving railways.

    PS: Hybrids are crap.

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    Senior Member Alpheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SnakeBiteLeader View Post
    Hydrogen does not occur in significant amounts in nature, so it has to be manufactured. The manufacture of hydrogen requires the use of more traditional forms of energy (i.e. fossil fuels) and generally costs more to make, energy-wise, than it can return.
    And not to mention that the most feasible method involves producing the hydrogen directly from hydrocarbons.

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