Labour can't really complain about the u-turn back to B as being getting a weaker fighter as it was their original choice.... so really, neither side have a leg to stand on in this mess.Originally Posted by jonas
I have to wonder what would have happened had Adam Wheritty not blown Fox out the water
Probably just one carrier in CATOBAR configuration with one being sold at the earliest opportunity. Australia would have been favourites for it as they've said the increase of China's navy is causing them concern.
Looking out for any responses from the Americans to support what Hammond has said in Parliament today.
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There is very little doubt that the incoming Conservative (Coalition) Government would have cancelled the Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers (despite the iconic name of class) when they took power in 2010. Looking for quick score and easy pen stroke big spend commitments they would have been all over cancelling both Queen Elizabeth (and certainly Prince of Wales) before you could say rum bum and baccy. However, being unable to cancel these too big monoliths due to the special vote catching Labour Government contracts with BAE the new Government then looked for quick score expenditure savings....
HMS Ark Royal was withdrawn from service just one year after a 19 million pound refit and the FAA/RAF GR9 Harriers and Nimrod AEW were struck off with a recklessness unchallenged by the in service Royal Navy top brass. They simply kept publicly quiet so as to keep their in service perks and no doubt their upcoming pensions. How could the top brass and politicians disregard the gaps that not having these assets leaves? So these non combatant fat on expenses and the good life politicians and their pen pushing "yes minister" MOD traitors carried and are carrying on.....with the movement of speeding exocet missiles towards our fleet many of which are ship fitted for but not with any CIWS or adequate weapon fits. They set about decimating an RN fleet to just 19 overworked destroyer and frigate units. All this of course whilst hyping through the MOD public relations team like a Pravda bulletin stuck on drivel mode spin transmit, happily churnning out for example the awesomeness of the just 6 overrated Type 45 destroyers with their fitted for and not with armament and the super capabilities of the Apache attack helicopters that can be available from HMS Illustrious until the sea spray does for them. Hype and propoganda that recently saw HMS Dauntless deploy for a seven month tour that will include the South Atlantic (if she makes it there with her recent faults) with no CIWS Phalanx yet fitted.
I personally have never thought the RN would ever get these carriers and am amazed we have even got this far. I certainly do not feel that we will get Prince of Wales if a buyer came up for her. Common sense dictates the RN should have two aircraft carriers rotating and catapult take off and arrestor landing and yet as we all see there is no common sense in strategic defence reviews which change with the polluted tide. If the old Ark Royal (R09) had been available in 1982 with her AEW Gannets many many sailors would be alive today that were sadly destined to make their last journey for this nation down to the Falklands. We should not forget that, we should not forget it is our servicemen that will risk their lives not Cameron, Hammond or some urk at the MOD. And yet I doubt the politicians even realise. Ski Ramp on the bows of QE and no EMALS or arrestor wires limits greatly a "proper" AEW or strike fighter asset and ties us totally to the F35B and AEW helicopters. What a mistake this will be.
One point that is rarely discussed is the very shallow sea depth into Portsmouth naval base where it is/was intended to base the QE class. test dredging has been occurring and there is no doubt that work in the actual dredging will cost millions of pounds and it will be a long term commitment. If we are now only to have one aircraft carrier of 65,000 tons with 6 F35B's (if we are very very lucky) then I don't doubt that the Government will be looking at re basing Queen Elizabeth when she limps into service as another cost cutting exercise.
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Only one problem with that,Australia could not afford it. Even if we sold one off at a knock down price,they could not afford the aircraft to fly off it.
At present the Australian government is in the process of making huge cutbacks in defence spending,although the area of concern is shifting to Asia and Australia's backyard,they are finding it extremely difficult to fund their defence programme.
We in this country seem to think we are the only ones with a defence procurement policy that is a shambles,not so,Australia has very large problems in this area.
The Collins class submarines have been an abysmal failure in spite of the RAN to talk them up,they are now trying to find Billions of dollars to replace them.
The Wedgetail AWACS system has been plagued by problems,New helicopters for the RAN still not cleared for ops,Amphibious warefare ship that are literaly falling to pieces.
The introduction of the Canberra class,and future AAW vessels are going to strain the RAN purse strings to the limit. Apart from which they cannot man the vessels they have,hence they are recruiting ex RN personel in the UK.
The grass is NOT always greener on the other side.
Quite a few lies, as expected, in the statement.
And no real certainty about the future of the second carrier either.
Just as bad as i thought it would be.
Analysis of the statement and its lies here:
http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogs...-for-2015.html
Well the last time I go on holiday, coming back to this news, anyway who knows what will happen in the future one things for sure there's many more CVF sagas to come.
Oh yeah, just had a wee look at Rosyth the 2 LB05 units are parked next to the upper bow sections in front of the shed, I would of taken a pic but its greyer than my mums sunday roast out there.
That’s true was it 3 month after getting rid of the Ark that the Libyan war broke out?, we should place bets on when this choice will come back to bite us in the ass, I call 9 months.
A terrible decision from the politicians, but certainly not an unexpected one. Look at the worst of both worlds (for the RN and for the taxpayer) and this is always where a politician's decision will end up.
One can surely guess that it would have some involvement from the Light Blue suits who proclaim to be the experts on anything with wings or rotors...
Let's not forget the wonderful new NH-90 helicopters. These, amongst other issues, are reported as being "undesirable" to take into a combat environment.
Just one more little snippet to throw into the mix:-
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Now, with no cats and traps conversion costs, it is holding out the prospect of having a continuous presence with the second carrier able to provide capability while the first vessel is in maintenance.
The MoD admits there is no decision on budgeting for the crew or support for a second carrier and said no decision will be taken until the next Strategic Defence and Security Review planned for 2015.
The first defense source said the design changes required for the conversion had turned out to be more invasive and complicated than expected, with 290 major modifications required to compartments on the warship rather than the 80 compartments originally expected to be affected.
Change the record, the report said 'all the service chiefs'One can surely guess that it would have some involvement from the Light Blue suits who proclaim to be the experts on anything with wings or rotors...
hi guys
I was going to say it would be stupid of the MOD not to commit to haveing the carriers on a rotation basis but i realise now not to rule out any stupid decisions !
Wonder how long the catobar images on the ACA website will last ?
Ps hope you had a good holiday CJ.
If they make this decision and that allows them to operate 2 carriers instead of one, its a defensible choice. Not saying "right," just defensible. If they revert to the -B and still only operate one, this was a remarkably dumb move.
Only one problem with that,Australia could not afford it. Even if we sold one off at a knock down price,they could not afford the aircraft to fly off it.
Actually Australia is in the process right now of acquiring aircraft, Super Bug, that could fly off a CATOBAR fitted QE. Problem would be getting funds to purchase it first and then convert it like you said. I'm sure the Indians are still interested in buying one to quickly replace their old Hermes class carrier rather than refit her to last another 20 years. Who wants to bet if they end up selling one, they sell it for a loss?
Cheers serge I did mate ta! Going from 28 degrees to 6 was a culture shock though lol.
So anybody got any ideas for the name of the barge/tug for LB02 yet? My guess is the AMT Trader again.
This whole decision reeks of incompetence and poor communication! The SDSR almost 2 years ago completely destroyed the Armed Forces with the aim of rebuilding into a formidable force in all branches and previous posts state both Parties have stuffed this up Labour with the initial decision and the ConDems with the competence of a bloody baboon! The figure of £2bn or there abouts is a further 2 Type 45s or half a dozen or so proposed Type 26s! That is LUDICROUS money it can't cost that much to convert a future proof modularly designed ship? Or are the designs flawed on purpose? Yes I know what I'm hinting at here but come on this is a joke! The money side of it alone is so dubious and we've never been given a rundown of this £2bn and I for one would love to see this evaluation sheet! Also with the changing to the B variant our highly valued interoperability with the French has just taken a blow!
My other question is why are the RAF so determined to get a like for like replacement for the Harrier? Do we need the VTOL ability anymore? It was a cold war idea and truly one of the most ingenious ideas I've personally read about, produce a plane that after the airfields get hit that can land and take off in a scrubby field, but do we need this ability anymore? Would it not benefit the RAF and the RN to have a plane that can carry more weapons and fly further or for longer?
As for selling one of the QEs I can't personally think of a Nation who can afford them? I know we'd sell them for probably half the amount we are paying for them. The Aussies can't afford the costs to run the ship after they bought it and from the Aussies I know, their government doesn't seem too in love with their Forces right now!
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