Reply With Quotebefore the advent of the intermediate cartridge they were used for a infantry weapon with a high rate of fire for close fighting. now adays most are used as specialty weapons, meant for CQB, or a secondary for heavy weapons users.
What is the purpose of sub-machine-guns?
Hello
First I would like to say I don't know much about firearms, I've fired a few types (pistols, carbines, machine-guns etc.), but that is all. This thread is not about me trying to convince anyone else something, it's about have a constructive discussion.
I wonder what role a sub-machine-gun fills and why you don't just use a carbine instead.
The shortest Steyr Aug is 63 cm overall length, with 35 cm barrel. This is shorter than standard mp5's and only 13 cm longer than a P90.
I am aware of the use by special forces as easily concealed and easily silenced fire-power. I am also aware of police use to avoid over penetration and harming innocent.
What I don't understand is why many armies buy Mp7's and similar weapons. What benefit does a regular soldier get from carrying an SMG?
before the advent of the intermediate cartridge they were used for a infantry weapon with a high rate of fire for close fighting. now adays most are used as specialty weapons, meant for CQB, or a secondary for heavy weapons users.
Yes, I know that. The Germans invented the StG44 in 1944 and made the smg obsolete in that role. You mentioned CQB, this is exactly what I wonder, aren't you better of with a 63 cm long Steyr Aug than any SMG? What benefits would something like a P90 have over a 63 cm Steyr Aug in CQB?Originally Posted by BRAVO JULIET
close range, light, high speed warfare.
I think you have to realize that sub machine guns were developed prior to the advent of the smaller carbines. Additionally, submachine guns as you know, use pistol ammo, which is generally smaller (takes up less space) and lighter weight (for carrying), as well as the lightness of the weapon itself.
In WWII, sub machine guns were used for just that reason, more ammo, less weight, but good in close in fighting and for suppressive fire. They have been carried on until today in various capacities, both military and civilian.
Nowadays? In the military? Only for speciality roles. Doorkicker stuff, boarding parties etc...
Submachineguns make sense for policework, they are not important for infantry stuff as far as I can tell.
during WWI there is a requirement for a firearm(i said firearm.polearm and entrenching tools can be used and have been used either but that ain't firing any round) that can be used to clear out trench.
Isn't that what carbines are for?
Weight:
3,2 kg (empty Steyr Aug) ,
3.1 kg (M4 carbine loaded with 30 rounds,
3,0 kg (P90 loaded with 50 rounds.
1,9 kg (empty MP7)
The difference isn't that great.
btw mp-7 was designed with assailant wearing body armor in mind
Most of the time? None. Makes little to zero sense and I´m not really happy when I see our soldiers slinging those things on dismounted patrol in Afghanistan.
They are light. That´s the only "advantage".
I´m even tempted to say that the carbine-length is overhyped. Unless you know that you´ll be doing house to house fighting most of the time, you´re better off with a full size rifle.
Flame away.
A 5,56 mm is still better at penetrating body armour.
"The Bundeswehr began to procure the MP7 in high numbers[2] after seeing its use by the special forces unit Kommando Spezialkräfte (KSK), where it has been used extensively. German soldiers in Afghanistan are now using the MP7 on patrol in Kabul. The MP7 is also a part of Germany's Infantryman of the future project."
^^ That is what I find so weird, why go around patrolling Kabul with a 4,6mm "pistol"?
Ok
Last edited by RamQan; 10-16-2009 at 11:33 AM. Reason: didn't want to make another post
Stupidity. Nothing else.
well alot of forces are tradeing in thier MP5s for 10 inch barrel carbines. US special forces are using the MK18CQB, and i believe the brits are doing the same with the C8CQB(dont know the british designation) and alot of US Swat teams are doing the same. now you asked about the P90, benefiets of that are since it is bullpup, it has a good barrel length for a PDW and it has a 50 round mag, which is huge. but you are confusing a SMG for a "PDW" smg = pistol caliber automatic weapon, PDW= the modern pdw is usually a smaller rifle caliber, 5.7, 4.6, and is intended to penetrate body armor at close ranges were the 9mm may have problems.
P90 and MP7 were initially developed as a rear echelon support weapon, that is why it is called the Personal Defense Weapon. it was developed with min effort to shoot, easy to aim and place hits out to 200m and ability to penetrate spetsnaz armor. since original role of spetsnaz were to criple the NATO supply line in the advent of a Western European war.
So the P90 and MP7 are more for the support troops instead of Special Operation group, but the compact and high rate of fire also made it suitable for SOG troops until actual shoot resulted in inability to neutralized a threat. US Secret Service no longer deploy the P90 in numbers like they did five years ago...that would be a sign!
I'm no expert, but I can read. It seems there has been a progression of sorts based on 'competition' between the good guys and the bad.
Part of the appeal of SMGs among SWAT teams, HRT and other door kickers seemed to be the low power of the cartridge: a pistol bullet would stop when it hit a tango, or a wall, and wouldn't be such a danger to civilians/hostages. With better body armor becoming available on the open market, rifle calibers (like .223) became more popular; with improved ballistics, subsonic rifle rounds proved a better compromise between safety and penetration.
Nowadays an anti-terror squad can expect the baddies to have body armor, so a carbine offers better penetration; sensible choice of ammo mitigates danger to bystanders.
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