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Thread: Royal Navy surrenders one new aircraft carrier in budget battle

  1. #1
    Senior Member Herman the II's Avatar
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    Default Royal Navy surrenders one new aircraft carrier in budget battle

    Royal Navy surrenders one new aircraft carrier in budget battle

    The Royal Navy has agreed to sacrifice one of its two new aircraft carriers to save about £8.2 billion from the defence budget.

    The admirals, who have battled for a decade to secure the two new 65,000-ton carriers, have been forced to back down because of the soaring cost of the American-produced Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) aircraft due to fly off them.

    The move will leave the navy without a carrier when the Queen Elizabeth goes into refit, leaving open the possibility that it might have to borrow one from the French navy. In a meeting with Brown last year, Nicolas Sarkozy, the French president, had suggested that refits of French and British aircraft carriers should be co-ordinated.

    The decision to have only one new aircraft carrier will cut the number of JSFs to be flown by RAF squadrons from 138 to about 50, saving £7.6 billion. At current prices, the aircraft will cost close to £90m each, but this could rise to more than £100m.

    Using the Prince of Wales as a commando ship will save a further £600m, the amount that would have been needed to replace the amphibious landing ship Ocean, which is due to go out of service in 2018.

    The decision to cut the number of JSF aircraft has been agreed by senior navy and air force commanders in discussions preparing for the strategic defence review.

    Both Labour and the Conservatives are committed to conducting a strategic defence review after the general election, which must be held by the late spring.

    A senior Royal Navy officer said: “We always knew that the real cost of the carrier project is the JSF fleet to go on them. It would cost us at least £12 billion if we bought all the aircraft we originally asked for. We are waking up to the fact that all those planes are unaffordable. More than half of the £5 billion contracts to build the two new carriers have been contracted, so it is too late to get out of building the ships. This way at least we are covered when Ocean goes out of service.”

    Since both aircraft carriers will still be built, there are unlikely to be job losses at the Rosyth ship yards, close to Brown’s constituency. The JSF aircraft are being built in Fort Worth, Texas, with the involvement of BAE Systems.
    The RAF, which had been due to replace its Tornado aircraft with the JSF, will now equip all its frontline squadrons with Eurofighter aircraft instead.
    full story:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6888962.ece

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    Senior Member happyslapper's Avatar
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    So the real story (in the unlikely event that this story is accurate) is about the JSF... not the carriers.

    1. I'll wait to see if anyone other than the TimesOnline run the story, but currently it begs the question of where Mr Smith is getting his info from (I see no sources quoted).
    2. It also begs the question of why this so-called defence correspondant can't distinguish between the Fleet Air Arm and the RAF.
    3. If this story is accurate; what has changed? The QE's parts have been ordered in full, for both carriers, and were designed from the outset to have a secondary amphib support role.
    4. The out-of-service date of HMS Ocean is 2022, not 2018.
    5. Would it not be a big enough story for the JSF order to be slashed, which is as big a project as the carriers?

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    Senior Member Name Taken's Avatar
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    What a surprise. Why bother buying anything when the bean-counters always slash the original requirements so they're down to the bare-bones?

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    Senior Member Silent Reader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Name Taken View Post
    What a surprise. Why bother buying anything when the bean-counters always slash the original requirements so they're down to the bare-bones?
    Had they been smart then they would have ordered 3 carriers - knowing that one would be slashed

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    Decline of the UK goes on.

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    Senior Member happyslapper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BudW View Post
    Decline of the UK goes on.
    Is that your erudite assessment, post reading an unsourced, already discredited article you've casually found on a military enthusiasts' forum?

    Aren't you a smart one. This site's full of 'em

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    Senior Member Antimatty's Avatar
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    hell, the economy is in a bad place right now. the bean counter cut those funds because they probably would rather translate those funds into aviation fuel and ammunition for immediate needs , rather than needs down the line. and besides , the british know, that if a situation were to develop where Multiple aircraft carriers were needed somewhere , America would probably be there to lend a hand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silent Reader View Post
    Had they been smart then they would have ordered 3 carriers - knowing that one would be slashed
    Hahahaha, nice!

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    the Ralph Wiggum of Mp.net. timetraveller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happyslapper View Post
    Is that your erudite assessment, post reading an unsourced, already discredited article you've casually found on a military enthusiasts' forum?

    Aren't you a smart one. This site's full of 'em

    Let him have his 30 secs of fame by his said opinion

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BudW View Post
    Decline of the UK goes on.
    The combined might of the UK, Canada, Australia, India, New Zealand, Malaysia, Pakistan and Singapore suggests otherwise.

    Now I don't know about you but the following when combined is still 2nd to only the US Navy and will still defeat the next 2 largest navies combined. This is where the power of the Empire came from.

    This is where the UK was a great Empire and ruled the waves.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ships_of_the_Indian_Navy

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadia...oday.27s_fleet

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysi..._Current_Fleet

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakista...et_composition

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...w_Zealand_Navy

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapo...#Current_fleet

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Navy#The_fleet

  11. #11
    Senior Member signatory's Avatar
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    Default (UK) Navy surrenders one new aircraft carrier in budget battle

    Can't see any mentionable sources but pretty bad if true.

    Navy surrenders one new aircraft carrier in budget battle
    Michael Smith

    The Royal Navy has agreed to sacrifice one of its two new aircraft carriers to save about £8.2 billion from the defence budget.

    The admirals, who have battled for a decade to secure the two new 65,000-ton carriers, have been forced to back down because of the soaring cost of the American-produced Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) aircraft due to fly off them.

    The move is a blow to the navy’s prestige and has come on the heels of Gordon Brown’s announcement last month that he was axing one of the navy’s four Trident nuclear deterrent submarines.

    It is too late for the navy to renege on contracts to build the two carriers, the Queen Elizabeth, due to go into service in 2016, and the Prince of Wales, due to follow in 2018. Although the second carrier will be built, it will be used as an amphibious commando ship, with only helicopters on board instead of JSF aircraft.

    The move will leave the navy without a carrier when the Queen Elizabeth goes into refit, leaving open the possibility that it might have to borrow one from the French navy. In a meeting with Brown last year, Nicolas Sarkozy, the French president, had suggested that refits of French and British aircraft carriers should be co-ordinated.

    The decision to have only one new aircraft carrier will cut the number of JSFs to be flown by RAF squadrons from 138 to about 50, saving £7.6 billion. At current prices, the aircraft will cost close to £90m each, but this could rise to more than £100m.

    Using the Prince of Wales as a commando ship will save a further £600m, the amount that would have been needed to replace the amphibious landing ship Ocean, which is due to go out of service in 2018.

    The decision to cut the number of JSF aircraft has been agreed by senior navy and air force commanders in discussions preparing for the strategic defence review.

    Both Labour and the Conservatives are committed to conducting a strategic defence review after the general election, which must be held by the late spring.

    A senior Royal Navy officer said: “We always knew that the real cost of the carrier project is the JSF fleet to go on them. It would cost us at least £12 billion if we bought all the aircraft we originally asked for. We are waking up to the fact that all those planes are unaffordable. More than half of the £5 billion contracts to build the two new carriers have been contracted, so it is too late to get out of building the ships. This way at least we are covered when Ocean goes out of service.”

    Since both aircraft carriers will still be built, there are unlikely to be job losses at the Rosyth ship yards, close to Brown’s constituency. The JSF aircraft are being built in Fort Worth, Texas, with the involvement of BAE Systems.

    The RAF, which had been due to replace its Tornado aircraft with the JSF, will now equip all its frontline squadrons with Eurofighter aircraft instead.

    The Conservatives said any decision to axe a carrier would be “absolutely unacceptable” and typical of the government’s “chaotic, inconsistent and incompetent defence procurement policy”.

    Liam Fox, the shadow defence secretary, said the move exposed the government’s claim that it wanted a completely independent strategic defence review. “The government is saying it is fully committed to the carriers while at the same time forcing them to be cut,” he said.

    “It is confusing for the navy, it is confusing for industry and it is completely inconsistent with the whole concept of running an independent defence review.”

    The Ministry of Defence said Bob Ainsworth, the defence secretary, remained 100% committed to the carriers but “financial circumstances mean some difficult decisions will have to be taken to prioritise our forces’ efforts in Afghanistan”.

    The Royal Navy currently has three smaller 20,600-ton carriers: Illustrious, Ark Royal and Invincible. Illustrious is on a visit to Liverpool. Invincible has already been mothballed.


    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6888962.ece

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    Senior Member signatory's Avatar
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    How the fvck could I miss Herman's thread. sorry

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    The combined fleet? lol, I wasn't aware that the current commonwealth was anything other than a loose association that got together once in a while to have a few sporting events. As a Brit, I'm sad to say that I somewhat agree with Bid's comment. The nation has become a nanny state overrun with drunks and chavs and seems powerless to act against criminals other than empowering them to sue others for their actions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Name Taken View Post
    The combined fleet? lol, I wasn't aware that the current commonwealth was anything other than a loose association that got together once in a while to have a few sporting events. As a Brit, I'm sad to say that I somewhat agree with Bid's comment. The nation has become a nanny state overrun with drunks and chavs and seems powerless to act against criminals other than empowering them to sue others for their actions.
    Your forgetting that up until the end of WW2 the Empire/Commonwealth contributed manpower, money and material for the maintenenance of the armed forces and their own indigenous forces were always included in the total combined strength of the UK during treaties such as the Washington Naval Treaty. (Australia had to scrap a battlecruiser!)

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    Senior Member SilentType's Avatar
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    Well come on now you're all being so harsh here about these cuts. I mean the MPs need their travel expense accounts to be paid for after all and that money has to come from somewhere.

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