New Frigates for the Royal Navy - Type 26

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

It is no longer "Regia Marina Militare", which is, pretty much, "Royal Navy" said in italian, but "Marina Militare", as Italy is a repubblic with no longer any recognized royal family.

As for Vulcano, i think the chances the Royal Navy would buy in (perhaps not immediately, but soon enough) are very good. Long range precision guided ammunition is definitely part of the intended new generation Maritime indirect fire solution.
Marina Militare definitely wants to go ahead with Vulcano adoption, and is refitting the FREMM frigates already built with a new, more capable highly automated magazine for the gun shells. The German Navy has also its eyes on the system, among with other potential customers. Indeed, it was Germany which asked to develop the ultra-accurate shell integrating GPS and Semi Active Laser guidance, for the engagement of not just static but mobile targets as well.
Trials have not yet concluded, but they are quite advanced, and no showstoppers have emerged so far. The first production lots for Marina Militare (of the 70 km variant, though, including the IR seeker anti-ship round) have been made in the 2013 budget.
The 120 Km GPS/SAL round will soon enough enter production as well, if trials conclude successfully. And i fully expect Oto Melara and Babcock to use Vulcano as an argument in support of the 127/64 LW. It is, indeed, the best point in their offering, even though the 127/64 is superior in all other aspects as well.
The gun itself (which is pretty much shiny new in itself) has been doing well on firing trials on the Carlo Bergamini FREMM frigate of the italian navy, and demonstrated the capability to sustain 30 rounds per minute.

Attachment 200838

Another significant factor is that Vulcano ammunition comes ready for the army's 155mm gun as well. And while the Royal Artillery has been eyeing the Excalibur for a while, a much longer range shell offering good commonality levels with those used by the Navy would be quite attractive, i think.

A thorough reply as always, much appreciated. Glad to hear that you are confident about the prospect of seeing the Vulcano round coming in to service with the RN (should we go the way of the 127/64 which seems very likely). I would also assume that in this case we would go full distance and purchase the GPS/SAL variant with the 120km range? Pretty stupid if we didn't if you ask me.

Interesting in regards to what you say about use on land. I had not heard of this before, it would certainly give the AS90 a new lease of life i should think. I’m also always stunned by the 30 rounds a minute statistic, that is some serious hurt 'oh you want to remove that grid square referrence? No problem!'

Now this may sound utterly ridiculous, so forgive my ignorance before hand, but would it in theory be possible to convert the entire 127/64 (minus ammunition carousel etc) to produce a land based self propelled system out of it? I was thinking something like the DONAR system but with a 127/64 mounted on the back?

Also could you perhaps shed a little more light on the IR 'anti-ship' guided round you mentioned? Sounds intriguing and i wondered what its features were/and or how it is different so as to achieve an anti-ship capability?

[Liger30]

I believe the RN would be mostly interested in the GPS/SAL variant of the shell, yes. Perhaps the unguided, 70 km range shell as well, for the simpler tasks. While i doubt the RN would want to spend money on the IR anti-ship round, personally.

Regarding the IR anti-ship round, it is worth reminding that Vulcano is actually a family of unguided and guided long range artillery shells, coming in 155 and 127 mm configurations. The round types are:

BER - unguided ballistic extended range (in 155mm land configuration and 127mm naval) 60/70 km range

GPS/INS - guided long range with GPS and inertial navigation (in 155mm land configuration and 127mm naval) 100 to 120 km range

GPS/INS+SAL - guided long range with GPS, inertial navigation and Semi Active Laser guidance for high accuracy targeting, eventually against even moving targets (in 155mm land configuration and 127mm naval) 100 to 120 km range

GPS/INS+IR - guided long range with GPS, inertial navigation and Infra red seeker optimized for anti-ship use on the 70 km distance. (127mm only)

Basically, the GPS/IR round is a small guided missile, with an Infra red seeker that detects the enemy ship and manoeuvres to hit it. One hit won't sink a large warship of course, but firing several rounds will give any warship a good share of worry. It might be harder for the ship's defences to try and shot down small artillery shells than it is to shoot down normal missiles.
And of course, the cost of an engagement with the IR rounds is said to be much lower than the cost of a missile attack.

The GPS+SAL had initially been planned only in 155 mm calibre, for use on land, but Germany proposed joint development of the naval 127mm variant as well, and Italy was all too happy to accept. The SAL laser unit is from Germany's Diehl.
Firing trials of the GPS/SAL ammunition have been going well: the SAL has been demonstrated, it survived the firing and worked as planned detecting the laser-marked target.
The BER will enter production later this year, while the guided variants are on track to enter initial production in 2014 and series production in 2015. With a bit of luck, by the time the Royal Navy is thinking about the first orders of ammunition, all variants of Vulcano will have been fully demonstrated.

As for producing a "land" 127/64, i don't know. Perhaps it could be adapted somehow, but it would never offer the same kind of firing rate and performances, and it would require way too many modifications to make it actually cost effective. Oto Melare did make a land variant of the 76mm Strales, though, the DRACO. It is a multi-role gun system with a high firing rate and the capability to employ radar guided rounds to shoot down aircraft, helicopters and Rockets, Artillery and Mortar threats. It can also engage targets like a tank would, out to 3 kilometers, or fire on distant targets like an howitzer... in future employing the Vulcano 76mm rounds, in development.

Regarding the land variants of the Vulcano system, they use the same guided, sabot-discarding, under-calibrated round of the naval variant, but fit it inside a different shell, designed to be used with the modular NATO launch charges used in 155mm howitzers. The 127mm naval round is, instead, of course, a single piece munition, like all naval gun's shells.
The best results with the Vulcano "land" will be obtained using the longer 155/52 barrels, such as those found on the PZH2000 howitzers, which, being in German, Dutch and Italian service was the main system targeted by the Vulcano development, but the ammunition is to be fully compatible with the 155/39 barrels as well, as used on the AS90.

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

I believe the RN would be mostly interested in the GPS/SAL variant of the shell, yes. Perhaps the unguided, 70 km range shell as well, for the simpler tasks. While i doubt the RN would want to spend money on the IR anti-ship round, personally.

Regarding the IR anti-ship round, it is worth reminding that Vulcano is actually a family of unguided and guided long range artillery shells, coming in 155 and 127 mm configurations. The round types are:

BER - unguided ballistic extended range (in 155mm land configuration and 127mm naval) 60/70 km range

GPS/INS - guided long range with GPS and inertial navigation (in 155mm land configuration and 127mm naval) 100 to 120 km range

GPS/INS+SAL - guided long range with GPS, inertial navigation and Semi Active Laser guidance for high accuracy targeting, eventually against even moving targets (in 155mm land configuration and 127mm naval) 100 to 120 km range

GPS/INS+IR - guided long range with GPS, inertial navigation and Infra red seeker optimized for anti-ship use on the 70 km distance. (127mm only)

Basically, the GPS/IR round is a small guided missile, with an Infra red seeker that detects the enemy ship and manoeuvres to hit it. One hit won't sink a large warship of course, but firing several rounds will give any warship a good share of worry. It might be harder for the ship's defences to try and shot down small artillery shells than it is to shoot down normal missiles.
And of course, the cost of an engagement with the IR rounds is said to be much lower than the cost of a missile attack.

The GPS+SAL had initially been planned only in 155 mm calibre, for use on land, but Germany proposed joint development of the naval 127mm variant as well, and Italy was all too happy to accept. The SAL laser unit is from Germany's Diehl.
Firing trials of the GPS/SAL ammunition have been going well: the SAL has been demonstrated, it survived the firing and worked as planned detecting the laser-marked target.
The BER will enter production later this year, while the guided variants are on track to enter initial production in 2014 and series production in 2015. With a bit of luck, by the time the Royal Navy is thinking about the first orders of ammunition, all variants of Vulcano will have been fully demonstrated.

As for producing a "land" 127/64, i don't know. Perhaps it could be adapted somehow, but it would never offer the same kind of firing rate and performances, and it would require way too many modifications to make it actually cost effective. Oto Melare did make a land variant of the 76mm Strales, though, the DRACO. It is a multi-role gun system with a high firing rate and the capability to employ radar guided rounds to shoot down aircraft, helicopters and Rockets, Artillery and Mortar threats. It can also engage targets like a tank would, out to 3 kilometers, or fire on distant targets like an howitzer... in future employing the Vulcano 76mm rounds, in development.

Regarding the land variants of the Vulcano system, they use the same guided, sabot-discarding, under-calibrated round of the naval variant, but fit it inside a different shell, designed to be used with the modular NATO launch charges used in 155mm howitzers. The 127mm naval round is, instead, of course, a single piece munition, like all naval gun's shells.
The best results with the Vulcano "land" will be obtained using the longer 155/52 barrels, such as those found on the PZH2000 howitzers, which, being in German, Dutch and Italian service was the main system targeted by the Vulcano development, but the ammunition is to be fully compatible with the 155/39 barrels as well, as used on the AS90.

A very informative reply, you covered everything! Thanks very much

[90inFIRST]

A very informative reply, you covered everything! Thanks very much

second that, as always liger, you mention one piece rounds for the navy, I thought the united defense 127 used shell and separate propellant charge, also once again I must apologies for my terrible math, I added 16 silos to 48 and got 72, post at hast repent at leisure....

[Liger30]

I remember the ERGM long-range ammunition for the MK45 was indeed going to be longer, and thus two-piece, halving the number of rounds in the drum, from 20 to 10, and also halving the rate of fire, again from 20 to around 10 per minute, because it had to be loaded in a two-stage operation. The ERGM, however, was cancelled in 2008.

The 127mm ammunition is indeed semi-fixed, and can be stored separating the warhead and the launch charge cartridge, but they are united when they are inserted in the drum, and from then onwards they are handled as one-piece ammunition by the autoloader. They are very different from 155mm land ammunition.



The proposed BAE 155mm built on the MK8 mount introduced a two-stroke loading process, and halved the size of the ammunition drum, because it used two-piece ammunition, the cartridge of which was obtained by putting land-type army howitzer launch charges into a newly designed single case.
They had found a way around the problem, and got the new cartridge to work, completing some 30 firings. Of course, the rate of fire went down by roughly half, to a maximum of 12 rounds per minute.



The graphic to the left shows the modified MK8 feedring, with the pink cylinders being the cased modular launch charges, which you can see in the photo in the middle.

[90inFIRST]

thanks liger, I had the drawings on pdf of the 155

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2009gunmissile/McClure.pdf

I have no doubt the 127/64 light weight is a much better weapon but still would have loved to see the 155....

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

I have no doubt the 127/64 light weight is a much better weapon but still would have loved to see the 155....

Putting 30, 5inch rounds 70 miles down range on roughly the same spot in the space of a minute really does rather make the Mk.45 look incredibly dated and thoroughly outclassed IMO.

[Liger30]

thanks liger, I had the drawings on pdf of the 155

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2009gunmissile/McClure.pdf

I have no doubt the 127/64 light weight is a much better weapon but still would have loved to see the 155....

I was a great supporter myself of the 155mm development. It had great potential, also export potential, in my opinion. The commonality with the Army's own stocks of ammunition was very alluring. Unfortunately, it was an easy target in the search for quick cuts between 2010 and 2011...

[90inFIRST]

Putting 30, 5inch rounds 70 miles down range on roughly the same spot in the space of a minute really does rather make the Mk.45 look incredibly dated and thoroughly outclassed IMO.

I agree though in this case it would be the 13kg sabot not the 32kg shell

[jonas]

Another reason for the MK41 to be considered for T26,and something that will be ready and proven by the time T26 is in build.

http://www.shephardmedia.com/news/defence-notes/lrasm/