F-3 ShinShin R&D cost estimated at $5.9 ~ 9.4 billion, demonstrator flying in 2015

[SlowMan]

http://www.nikkei.com/news/latest/ar...E28297EAE2E2E2

Japan's MoD has finalized the performance and functional objectives of F-3 ShinShin.

- R&D cost for F-3 ShinShin is estimated to be $5.9 ~ 9.4 billion
- First demonstrator will be flying in 2015.
- F-3 ShinShin will replace F-2.
- Japan might seek international partners for ShinShin project to co-fund it.

Some key features of F-3 ShinShin

- Anti-stealth radar where stealth targets are quickly acquired.
- Networked combat management system, where sensor data is shared and missiles fired from any ShinShin could be guided by any other ShinShin.

[Ambassador]

I demand Japan be following the footsteps of Germany and be more generous in its 'tangible' efforts to protect those countries upon whom it had once inflicted unimaginable mass destruction. We need no more presidential apologies or piddly $30 million economic aid for 10 years in exchange for busting our ass in Vietnam with far more expenses, we want access to and convenient R&D opportunities for world-class stealth technology! See what helps more in preventing East Asian history from repeating itself?

Korean military technology cannot catch up to the Russo-Chinese technology of China on its own. Korea needs the help of China's other great rivals. Korea receives response from the US, Europe, Southeast Asia, and even from Russia itself, but Japan doesn't seem to care to respond, at least not in a way Korea can meaningfully perceive it. Japan could add Korea to their exception list of to whom it could export military technology, but it didn't. If Japan only have enough willingness to do it, Japan can do it. If the Japanese people then somehow objected to the government's legitimate and rational decision to help Korea via means of military technology, then it would only show that the Japanese people were actually being insincere and superficial about their wishes for healthy and effective camaraderie and alliance with Korea. I'm still convincing myself that that is not true, that Japanese people still have only the best wishes for Korea's continued era of relative peace and prosperity. The honorable Japanese people will support Japan's amendment of its policies on technology transfer to accept Korea as a legal beneficiary of joint projects in military R&D, so citing possible civil unrest for describing the reason for refusing military co-development with a key strategic ally is not a convincing excuse.

Japan can help Korea militarily at a much higher level than it does now, by more than serving as mere way-points for US forces. Japan should start using that potential more often, and maybe the future Koreans will like Japan more than Koreans do today. Apologies are still mere words at their inception; they should be followed up by tangible actions which speak volumes of what they mean.

[Confuse]

I demand Japan be following the footsteps of Germany and be more generous in its 'tangible' efforts to protect those countries upon whom it had once inflicted unimaginable mass destruction. We need no more presidential apologies or piddly $30 million economic aid for 10 years in exchange for busting our ass in Vietnam with far more expenses, we want access to and convenient R&D opportunities for world-class stealth technology! See what helps more in preventing East Asian history from repeating itself?

Korean military technology cannot catch up to the Russo-Chinese technology of China on its own. Korea needs the help of China's other great rivals. Korea receives response from the US, Europe, Southeast Asia, and even from Russia itself, but Japan doesn't seem to care to respond, at least not in a way Korea can meaningfully perceive it. Japan could add Korea to their exception list of to whom it could export military technology, but it didn't. If Japan only have enough willingness to do it, Japan can do it. If the Japanese people then somehow objected to the government's legitimate and rational decision to help Korea via means of military technology, then it would only show that the Japanese people were actually being insincere and superficial about their wishes for healthy and effective camaraderie and alliance with Korea. I'm still convincing myself that that is not true, that Japanese people still have only the best wishes for Korea's continued era of relative peace and prosperity. The honorable Japanese people will support Japan's amendment of its policies on technology transfer to accept Korea as a legal beneficiary of joint projects in military R&D, so citing possible civil unrest for describing the reason for refusing military co-development with a key strategic ally is not a convincing excuse.

Japan can help Korea militarily at a much higher level than it does now, by more than serving as mere way-points for US forces. Japan should start using that potential more often, and maybe the future Koreans will like Japan more than Koreans do today. Apologies are still mere words at their inception; they should be followed up by tangible actions which speak volumes of what they mean.

your pretty much asking for japanese tech transfer and loose alliance to combine forces against china, in a perfect world it might happen, but currently there is still too much unsolved animousity between both due to historical past, also the fact that regardless of common threat of china they both don't trust each other (after china isn't a threat it will be korea and japan against each other in the continuation of historical east asia rivalries) ... korea is still much better off getting a mix of russian and US assistance while concentrating on domestic research, currently the biggest hold back for a real stealth project is mainly funding or lack of enough funding while other areas of the korean armed forces are building up such as the army and mainly the recent naval build up

[fooj]

Aren't Korea and Japan also rivals? I've not heard of anything good these nations have to say about each other. So I assume any tech sharing would only be a marriage of convenience. Joint exercises and diplomatic solidarity against a common percieved enemy, i.e. China is one thing, but sharing tech secrets? Extending an olive branch to a traditional rival in the face of a common enemy is not unheard of, so I suppose anything is possible.

I suppose Korea could buy the Japanese end product, similar to purchasing F-15Ks from the US. That would be the cheaper alternative.

[Ambassador]

Aren't Korea and Japan also rivals? I've not heard of anything good these nations have to say about each other. So I assume any tech sharing would only be a marriage of convenience. Joint exercises and diplomatic solidarity against a common percieved enemy, i.e. China is one thing, but sharing tech secrets? Extending an olive branch to a traditional rival in the face of a common enemy is not unheard of, so I suppose anything is possible, but a little naive I think.

Japan's apologies can (or should) mean more than just words or the small indigenous token support that it's providing to Korea today. Japan can make more direct contribution in helping Korea attain peace through military power which Korea still needs in healthy abundance, with just some military-scientific involvement (it's just like what Russia, the US, and Southeast Asian and European countries are doing as an ordinary business). Also, the benefit goes two ways. A militarily strong Korea protects Japan as a vanguard because of the geographic setting. Koreans' future acceptance of the Japanese as a new ally can also grow as strong as what the Europeans and Israel have of Germany now if Japan took a more active role in defending Korea as Germany did for Europe and Israel. Korea and Japan share a common guardian, the US, who keep both friendly to each other and unlikely to fight each other again, though historically - and still up to this day - the US seems to be more generous towards Japan than Korea. Japan can reduce some of the sense of envy and injustice that Korea feels by sharing with Korea some of the things that US wouldn't, like a stealth technology that the US would share with Japan but not with Korea. We can better consolidate our strategic relationship that way as strategic partners.

I suppose Korea could buy the Japanese end product, similar to purchasing F-15Ks from the US. That would be the cheaper alternative.

A direct exportation of a full Japanese product has historically been very expensive for most countries to buy, I think. This is even under the insurance of high demand for such Japanese products that would sustain a long-term mass production. Korean involvement in both the R&D and the manufacturing process will significantly reduce the budget in the overall program. You can start predicting the possible magnitude of reduction in the cost in a joint Korean-Japanese program by merely looking at the purchasing power parity of the two countries' currencies, which is about 1:2 for the Won against the Yen (it's simple; if a particular Korean weapon costs x amount of money, a Japanese weapon of the same quality costs 2x, at the same level of demand for both). If the program is half Korean share, the cost of the entire program will be reduced by one-fourth, while yielding the same or a better result. I'm speaking in entirely theoretical and extremely approximate terms.

Well we'll never actually see a Japan and Korea cooperating in a full-fledged joint military R&D, because of outstanding rivalry and symbolic issues as you've said. Either Japan would still be apprehensive of what boost in military power Korea would gain through the success of the Korean-Japanese program, or Korea would not want to be viewed as a hypocritical beneficiary of someone it calls a 'rival'. But I'm more inclined to believe that the former case would be the most likely cause, of the Japanese government not wanting to involve itself in military matters (like a rearmament) of the region too much, than the case of a Korean government not wanting to be viewed as being too reliant on a proclaimed rival's scientific wealth. The Korean government always know to put aside rivalries when a great strategic benefit can be gained, especially when it concerns military or economic strategy.

[fooj]

Given the current state of the Japanese economy, an F35 style joint venture between Japan and Korea is entirely possible I suppose, I'm not familiar with the practicalities of such an arrangement.

I find it hard to swallow that Japan would offer to make ammends for it's past historical indiscressions, indiscressions that many Japanese are still in denial about, by offering to share military secrets in the face of a common enemy. That sounds disingenuous to me. I think any joint venture would have to be self serving (for the reasons that you have described) which is why I consider it a marriage of convenience.

Let's say China one day collapses, would Korean/Japanese relations continue to remain as militarily collaborative? I really don't know, I'm no expert, but, my understanding of the asian rivalries are that they are bitter, ethnic in nature and go back millenia. I'm not sure if it's a case of letting bygones be bygones. The corollary of that is, if one day Japan becomes the next world super power wannabe, would Korea and China form a detente?

[IconOfEvi]

How history repeats

So instead of buying F-15S, or signing on for JSF, HEY, lets build a new thing, again! And it'll be less functional than its rivals, again! And it'll cost three times as much, again!

[Ambassador]

Let's say China one day collapses, would Korean/Japanese relations continue to remain as militarily collaborative? I really don't know, I'm no expert, but, my understanding of the asian rivalries are they are bitter, ethnic in nature and go back millenia. I'm not sure if it's a case of letting bygones be bygones. The corollary of that is, if one day Japan becomes the next world super power wannabe, would Korea and China form a detente?

Asia's best insurance for peace is continued US presence in the region. Korea will look to the US for the most secure alliance. I don't think Japan will try being a hegemon of Asia until at least both China and the US collapse. That's a very very small probability raised to second power. The US collapsing alone is an order of magnitude more likely than China and the US collapsing together, which means it's even more prudent for Korea and Japan to reinforce their strategic partnership early on in contingency preparation for a possible US collapse, to oppose China together on their own from then on. Well yes, a rapid fall of the US is also a quite disingenuous notion. I think we should forget about a superpower-wannabe Japan or a fallen US, and just look to contain China, which is an a lot more realistic goal.

As for the US, it's the most benevolent superpower in history. And I think it perceives as its best interest to keep history that way. Regional peace will be maintained for as long as the US reserves the exclusive ability to enforce it. Given Japan and the US's respective resources endowment, I don't think Japan will ever be able to usurp that exclusive position of an arbiter (the country that has the greatest sway on whether Asia remains peaceful or not) that's reserved only for the US, even if Japan did form enough political willingness to attempt it someday. China is the only country that can dethrone the US's status as Asia's strongest power with its resources endowment, not Japan. Likely, a fallen China will only mean that that sole country is gone, and not necessarily that Japan would seek to fill the 'China' gap, to oppose the US.

So back to my opinion, I think a joint stealth fighter program between Japan and Korea is more beneficial than it is not in the most realistic terms. The problems that are barring its inception are as abstract and artificial as mere issues of emotional will or 'ethnic obligation', and much less based on realistic grounds.

[SlowMan]

A joint project is not possible, as Japan and Korea are potential combatants against each other with an outstanding bitter territorial dispute. Furthermore, both have similar capabilities(Indigenous avionics, indigenous AESA radar, and indigenous EW suits) and similar shortcomings(Both lack viable fighter engines. Japan is quite a bit ahead in engine department but they may still end up license producing F414 or EJ200 for F-3), so there is no benefit in cooperation either.

R&D cost for both KFX and F-3 are just too great for any single country to bear in this day of economy and both must seek out partners to share R&D cost and production output. Koreans are ahead in this regard because they already signed on Indonesia, and are talking to Turkey and UAE. As for Japan, I don't know whom Japan could approach to co-fund ShinShin; possibly Saudi Arabia, Brazil, and so on.

One thing is clear, F-35 is a temporary solution for Japan, and Japan has decided to do an indigenous stealth fighter to replace both F-15J and F-2.

I would expect Japan to buy 40 F-35Bs as a stop-gap solution, to be moved to 22DDH as naval fighters when F-3 enters service.

[Ambassador]

Japan cannot co-develop F-3 with even Saudi Arabia or Brazil. Korea is the only country outside the US that the Japanese government can justify amending its military export ban on countries other than the US by using 'it's highly beneficial to us' and 'we have some self-imposed commitment to protect Korea from now on' type of both pragmatic and ideological excuses. All co-development between Japan non-US partners are one-way; Japan can only receive technology, they can't give.

[Victor1]

http://www.nikkei.com/news/latest/ar...E28297EAE2E2E2

Japan's MoD has finalized the performance and functional objectives of F-3 ShinShin.

- R&D cost for F-3 ShinShin is estimated to be $5.9 ~ 9.4 billion
- First demonstrator will be flying in 2015.
- F-3 ShinShin will replace F-2.
- Japan might seek international partners for ShinShin project to co-fund it.

Some key features of F-3 ShinShin

- Anti-stealth radar where stealth targets are quickly acquired.
- Networked combat management system, where sensor data is shared and missiles fired from any ShinShin could be guided by any other ShinShin.

Huh? Is this some joke?

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Huh? Is this some joke?

Why is it a joke?

Australia developed a RADAR system that is good enough to detect stealth planes and ships

[domokun]

Huh? Is this some joke?

AESA radar? Stealth isn't complete invisibility, it just means lot less visible than not stealthy.

Japan-Korea alliance would be quite beneficial for both parties, as they both share their primary threats, China and NK. But I'll doubt that such alliance isn't going to happen, too much historical baggage. There wouldn't be potential civilian unrest, there would be civilian unrest, certainly.

[Antey]

Why is it a joke?

Australia developed a RADAR system that is good enough to detect stealth planes and ships

Are you refering to JORN by any chance ?

Anyway, Russia, France and possibly number of other countries can claim the same.

Stealth is most of all function of frequency, and all-aspect multiband (from hundreds of MHz to tens of GHz) stealth simply is not possible.

[Arthicrex]

For anyone who can read Japanese, this is from Japanese MoD

http://www.mod.go.jp/j/press/news/2010/08/25a_02.pdf

It's funny how most Japan related topics in this site get discussed from Korean point of view by Koreans. I guess that's what happens when Korean posters easily outnumber Japanese ones. I really don't wanna get into what Japan should and shouldn't do with its defence projects in regard with Korea. I have nothing against Korea and I hope Japan and Korea can be important partners not just economically.

But I don't quite agree with this.

A joint project is not possible, as Japan and Korea are potential combatants against each other with an outstanding bitter territorial dispute. Furthermore, both have similar capabilities(Indigenous avionics, indigenous AESA radar, and indigenous EW suits) and similar shortcomings(Both lack viable fighter engines. Japan is quite a bit ahead in engine department but they may still end up license producing F414 or EJ200 for F-3), so there is no benefit in cooperation either.

I am sorry, but Japan has a big head start over Korea in these fields. Only thing Korea could contribute to this project would be funding, and that means there will be no tech transfars. I don't see any benefit for Korea in that case except they will be able to get the fighters. I'm pretty sure they'll be able to do that from US in 30 years.

Page 11 of that .pdf shows (over?)simplified LCC comparison of F-35 and this project. It concludes there won't be much difference, adding that the economical impact on Japanese industry will offset the small difference.