Australian Defence Force - Thread

[lopez]

I suppose it is a great Idea to have your entire inventory of tanks In an armored column destroyed by fast air...

And any way aren't we moving toward a structure that mimics the German self contained divisions but at a brigade level?

[Nige]

lopez, I am not suggesting the tanks move in a column, slowly, toward the enemy.

I don't believe the ADF is mimicking the German model at all, the infantry will be weedwalkers, not panzergrenadiers, the artillery will mainly be towed (admittedly the Germans in WW2 never really got SPG as they wanted it, but their aspiration was SPG in Panzer Divisions)

Weedwalkers have their place on the modern battlefield, but anyone who suggests ADF brigades will be anything other than weedwalkers with a bit of armour kicking around is kidding themselves. Infantry who bum lifts in APCs are not Mechanised, they are passengers.

I just hope Australia doesn't have a war against peers anytime soon.

[Opening Batsman]

Weedwalkers have their place on the modern battlefield, but anyone who suggests ADF brigades will be anything other than weedwalkers with a bit of armour kicking around is kidding themselves. Infantry who bum lifts in APCs are not Mechanised, they are passengers.

Coming from a mech battalion, it isn't really a difficult concept. A little bit of training will make anybody capable of working effectively with APCs. It's the same job with a few adjustments to SOPs and a few new drills.

[Kirkzzy]

I believe you are wrong in your assertion that the ADF could get the right structure now, it does not have the resources to do so.

Additionally, spreading the tanks among 3 brigades is a recipe for disaster. Read any good book on mobile warfare and it will probably say tanks need to be used en masse, not penny packeted as infantry support. The ADF is now making the same mistakes as WW1 Britain did.

Same mistake with arty too, SPG troops in Bdes FFS?

The allies learned how to use tanks from the Germans. Pity there is no exchange post for Australian Generals in Germany...

Were not going to be in High Intensity conflict, don't you get it? These are meant for light to medium intensity conflicts that require small amounts of units. Look at Afghanistan, with just 4 Dutch SPGs, look at what they accomplished. Look at the Dutch and Canadian Leopard 2s that weren't "en masse" look at what they accomplished. Were not fighting a major war here. If we were we would have whole Tank regiments in these brigades and not just a single squadron. Look at how well the centurions went in Vietnam and they had just one squadron. That is coming from my relative who served in the 3rd Cavalry Regiment in Vietnam and if you have read a historical piece like "Vietnam: The Australian War" by Paul Ham you would see the just how large their support was, even just single troops of four. Furthermore do you really think even if all the Tanks were in one armoured regiment that we would deploy all of them at the same time? No, we can only deploy one squadron (to sustain it anyway).

That is still under consideration and there is nothing as of yet that states the Land 400 replacement for the ASLAV will be tracked.

If anything, a wheeled replacement in the same family; Piranha IV/V would be a more ideal solution for the Cav Regiments.

Something like the CV-90/Armadillo for the Mech Bns.

You're not getting it, there isn't going to be Mech Bns, they're all going to be multi-role light battalions that can adapt to the situation.

As for the naysayers on the proposed structure, this comes from the top of the Army Hierarchy. The people with the experience and the know how that have been in the military for years have carefully analysed the situation and chosen this structure. Between some armchair generals sitting at their computers and the military leadership, I know I'd rather pick the military with more experience on the issue. As said before it is based upon adaptability and the experiences from Vietnam and how well the structure there worked. In fact the brigades are much like the Marine Expeditionary Brigade's Ground Combat element, just with less artillery due to the lower need for an over the horizon high intensity assault. The army has looked at our current deployments, our future ones and what the government wants. This does not include high intensity warfare (as the Army will not be going in alone by itself in this type of conflict. Most likely having coalition allies with the resources for such a conflict.). Thus there is no need for these massive columns of Tanks moving in with batteries of SPGs battering down on the enemy.

[digrar]

As for the naysayers on the proposed structure, this comes from the top of the Army Hierarchy. The people with the experience and the know how that have been in the military for years have carefully analysed the situation and chosen this structure.

The Generals that were around when they tried to do the Pentropic Battalions weren't experienced? Or the Generals when RTA never really got squared away? Add a Labor government into the mix and a 50 year history of big plans never really coming off, you'll have to excuse a bit of pessimism.

[Kirkzzy]

The Generals that were around when they tried to do the Pentropic Battalions weren't experienced? Or the Generals when RTA never really got squared away? Add a Labor government into the mix and a 50 year history of big plans never really coming off, you'll have to excuse a bit of pessimism.

Pentropic battalions didn't work because there was no experience to base them off. As for a Labor government, that has nothing to do with the Army's plans. And for the 50 year history of big plans never paying off, this plan was already initiated when Australia was in Vietnam. The structure makes sense! Please tell me why you think it is a good idea with the current 24 month cycle where as it stands each brigade must be deployed every 16 months for 8 months to the same theatres as the last brigade yet for some reason has the resources for a different role? It does not work! The army has seen this and regardless of their role (mech/mot/light) has just ended up training every battalion for a motorised role with Bushmasters anyway.

[Kirkzzy]

To add to that it does not even matter if the brigades aren't geared for a major war at the moment as if that happens we will just end up raising 20 other divisions anyway each with their own role. This is just our regular peace time army, meant for our regular peacetime deployments. If a major war happens believe me we will see more divisions raised, each with their own role and we will see 24 artillery a brigade and columns of tanks... yet this is peacetime and all we need is a multi-role brigade structure that is meant for deploying to light-medium intensity conflicts and high intensity with coalition support. Hell maybe add another brigade into the mix just for retention and to keep the Troop's happy so they receive more training time and less deployed time.

[Nige]

If you prepare your forces for the last war, they will lose the next war.

[Kirkzzy]

If you prepare your forces for the last war, they will lose the next war.

FFS this has been done again and again. Strategic planning done by experts who know a crap load more than you do have determined that Defence needs to be able to meet strategic threats in our area. They must be able to rapidly react to these threats (amphibious ready group) and be able to train and sustain a deployment. Aren't you getting it through through your head that due to current and future operations we need to be able to sustain our force in theatre? How hard is is to understand that concept?

[digrar]

What would you know nige, just because you signed up before this bloke was born and you've seen it all before, stop harshing his mellow.

[gusto]

SF will do everything regardless of how many vehicles we get.Conventional army will end up doing nothing but disaster relief.Even choco SF will deploy offensively before a RAR Batt.Its cheaper money and lives wise.The politicians have learnt this and it was a Howard Liberal Govt that came up with it.Those 2500 USMC in Darwin will deploy while our fleet sits unmanned and rusting.The new amphib role anywhere with in three weeks...what a joke.As if the Govt of the day is going to pay for a MEU floating around the Pacific unless there is another earthquake somewhere.
Unless Korea kicks off that is.

[Goldfishsoldier]

To add to that it does not even matter if the brigades aren't geared for a major war at the moment as if that happens we will just end up raising 20 other divisions anyway each with their own role. This is just our regular peace time army, meant for our regular peacetime deployments. If a major war happens believe me we will see more divisions raised, each with their own role and we will see 24 artillery a brigade and columns of tanks... yet this is peacetime and all we need is a multi-role brigade structure that is meant for deploying to light-medium intensity conflicts and high intensity with coalition support. Hell maybe add another brigade into the mix just for retention and to keep the Troop's happy so they receive more training time and less deployed time.

Believe me, that is the last thing we want. A high tempo Army is a happy army.

[steyr_88]

Training is boring as ****. At least you get good pay while deployed.

[BiZ]

As for a Labor government, that has nothing to do with the Army's plans.

It has always been my experience that those in charge of the purse strings guide and shape the way things eventuate...

[vor033]

Soldiers from the 4th rotation of the Reconstruction Task Force (RTF 4) have started the first phase of their pre-deployment training, prior to their tour in Afghanistan. They will be serving on Operation Slipper; the ADF’s contribution to the NATO led ISAF Mission in Oruzgan Province later this year. The Soldiers are on exercise at the Wide Bay Training Area in Queensland.

Corporal Shane Brown of RTF 4 providing security on exercise at Wide Bay Training Area.

Lieutenant Matthew Dirago conducts security exercise at Wide Bay Training Area.

A Soldier from 3rd Battalion Royal Australian Regiment assesses the situation during a platoon live fire exercise at Wide Bay Training Area.

"Get up there!" A Soldiers from 3rd Battalion Royal Australian Regiment commands his troops during an assault in a platoon live fire exercise at Wide Bay Training Area.

Soldiers from 3rd Battalion Royal Australian Regiment assault in a platoon live fire exercise at Wide Bay Training Area.

Soldiers from 3rd Battalion Royal Australian Regiment fire at targets during a platoon live fire exercise at Wide Bay Training Area.

Soldiers from 3rd Battalion Royal Australian Regiment fire at targets during a platoon live fire exercise at Wide Bay Training Area.

A Soldier from 3rd Battalion Royal Australian Regiment moves into position before an assault in a platoon live fire exercise at Wide Bay Training Area.

A Soldier from 3rd Battalion Royal Australian Regiment helps man the machine gun during a platoon live fire exercise at Wide Bay Training Area.

A Soldier from 3rd Battalion Royal Australian Regiment fires the machine gun during an assault in a platoon live fire exercise at Wide Bay Training Area.

Soldiers from 3rd Battalion Royal Australian Regiment assault in a platoon live fire exercise at Wide Bay Training Area.

'Let’s go, lets go!' A Soldiers from 3rd Battalion Royal Australian Regiment commands his troops during an assault in a platoon live fire exercise at Wide Bay Training Area.

Soldiers from 3rd Battalion Royal Australian Regiment assault in a platoon live fire exercise at Wide Bay Training Area.