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Thread: Hamas admits 600-700 of its men were killed in Cast Lead

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    Senior Member Ren987's Avatar
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    Default Hamas admits 600-700 of its men were killed in Cast Lead

    The military group had previously claimed only 49 militants died during Gaza war, though Israel put the figure at 709.

    By Haaretz Service

    Hamas admitted last week that between 600 and 700 of its militants were killed during Operation Cast Lead – a figure consistent with that reported by the Israel Defense Forces.

    The figure is several times higher than the previous number of fatalities that Hamas claimed it sustained during the operation.

    Hamas’ military wing had previously claimed that only 49 of its militants were killed during the three-week operation that the IDF launched in December 2008. Israel had put the figure at 709.

    In an interview with the London-based Al-Hayat daily last Monday, however, Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hamad detailed the heavy price his group had paid during the war.

    "They say that it was the people who were harmed in the last war," said Hamad. "Are we not part of the people nation? On the first day of the war, Israel attacked the police command and killed 250 martyrs, from Hamas and other factions."

    "This was in addition to the 200-300 members of the Al-Qassam Brigade [Hamas' military wing] and 150 security personnel," Hamad added. "The rest of the fatalities were from among the civilian population."

    Hamad also accused Israel of concealing the precise number of IDF troops killed during the operation.

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...-lead-1.323776

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    Senior Member Ren987's Avatar
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    I think Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hamad deserves some credits for telling part of the truth. Maybe he would have been a bit more objective than the appartheid judge Goldstone...

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    buck duck huck luck muck puck ruck suck tuck yuck fuuuuuuuu muck's Avatar
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    That leaves the civilian death toll where?

    Oh, right... Nobody gives a damn. Israel's the villain.

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    Senior Member Ren987's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muck View Post
    That leaves the civilian death toll where?

    Oh, right... Nobody gives a damn. Israel's the villain.
    On the palestinian side, between 1,166 (IDF estimates) to 1,417 (Pal estimates) people were killed, that means at worth a 50/50 ratio and at best a fighter/civilian ratio of 60/40
    Last edited by Ren987; 11-09-2010 at 02:23 PM.

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    Senior Member BlackWarder's Avatar
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    1400 is the Palestinians number, you know the guys who claimed for 2 years that only 49 were hamas fighters.

    Just as a fun fact, for some reason there were no death due to old age, heart disease, cancer etc etc during cast lead or the following and previous months.

    Warder

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    Don't forget all deformed and maimed babies are the result of DU shells and WP bombs and have nothing to do what so ever with inbreeding.

    Trouble is, Israeli "massacre" is a hip term that remains lodged deep inside the arab/leftist ethos.
    throw about "Jenin massacre" and the most likely response you'll get from the former is fictitious tales of organ thieving juice killing a gazilion babies while firing laser beams at them. (Or the muhammad a-dura hoax). the truth doesn't really matter to them.
    so this outing of Hamas tactics of demonizing Israel will simply fade away until the next Pallywood movie screens

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    Senior Member GB_FXST's Avatar
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    How does an open and democratic society conceal fatalities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ren987 View Post
    I think Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hamad deserves some credits for telling part of the truth. Maybe he would have been a bit more objective than the appartheid judge Goldstone...
    True.

    Regarding the other POS, hanging/flogging/racist Judge Goldstone was never interested in facts.

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    Being a Twit Bamba's Avatar
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    Actually the IDF figures which are looking more correct everyday have twice as many Hamas being killed as Civilians.

    700 Hamas to 295 civilians.

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    Senior Member Korathv2's Avatar
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    It's interesting. That would make the second conflict in a short time (Cast Lead and Leb'06), when Israel inflicted ca. equal casualties to combatants and civilian population. BTW, the figure of approx. 1400 casualties during Cast Lead is not really disputed (numbers vary between 1,166 and 1,417). It seems that the civilian casualties are extremely high. It cannot be contributed only to the fact that fighting takes place in urban areas. The question whether IDF feels free / is ordered to attack infrastructure and/or targets in vicinity of populated sites is a valid one. (E.g., pending court proceedings in Israel concerning attack on a house in Gaza which caused a number of civilian casualties even though civilian were directed by IDF to seek shelter in that house.)

    [I don't want to start a flame war. For the purpose of the discussion it doesn't matter if it's IDF or any other army. Also note that the numbers are estimated. I just think that consistent 50/50 combatant/civilian ratio seems awfully high.]

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    buck duck huck luck muck puck ruck suck tuck yuck fuuuuuuuu muck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    It's interesting. That would make the second conflict in a short time (Cast Lead and Leb'06), when Israel inflicted ca. equal casualties to combatants and civilian population. BTW, the figure of approx. 1400 casualties during Cast Lead is not really disputed. It seems that the civilian casualties are extremely high. It cannot be contributed only to the fact that fighting takes place in urban areas. The question whether IDF feels free / is ordered to attack infrastructure and/or targets in vicinity of populated sites is a valid one. (E.g., pending court proceedings in Israel concerning attack on a house in Gaza which caused a number of civilian casualties even though civilian were directed by IDF to seek shelter in that house.)

    [I don't want to start a flame war. For the purpose of the discussion it doesn't matter if it's IDF or any other army. I just think that consistent 50/50 combatant/civilian ratio seems awfully high.]
    If it wasn't for blaming the IDF, why don't you seek to blame Hamas for employing human shields and other methods of warfare that have jeopardized the security of innocent civilians?
    Moreover, if Hamas lied about its own fatalities its very likely also lying about civilian casualties.

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    Senior Member BlackWarder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    It's interesting. That would make the second conflict in a short time (Cast Lead and Leb'06), when Israel inflicted ca. equal casualties to combatants and civilian population. BTW, the figure of approx. 1400 casualties during Cast Lead is not really disputed. It seems that the civilian casualties are extremely high. It cannot be contributed only to the fact that fighting takes place in urban areas. The question whether IDF feels free / is ordered to attack infrastructure and/or targets in vicinity of populated sites is a valid one. (E.g., pending court proceedings in Israel concerning attack on a house in Gaza which caused a number of civilian casualties even though civilian were directed by IDF to seek shelter in that house.)

    [I don't want to start a flame war. For the purpose of the discussion it doesn't matter if it's IDF or any other army. I just think that consistent 50/50 combatant/civilian ratio seems awfully high.]
    Concerning that incident (and bearing in mind that I'm not sure that is what you are referring to) there was a **** up in communicating between the different units concerning in which house the civilians were and in which house the terrorist were, So the Brigade CO order to fire on wrong house.

    And the 1400 is not undisputed, it's just what the Palestinians claimed and all the media took as fact.
    Check this

    Warder

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    Senior Member GB_FXST's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    It's interesting. That would make the second conflict in a short time (Cast Lead and Leb'06), when Israel inflicted ca. equal casualties to combatants and civilian population. BTW, the figure of approx. 1400 casualties during Cast Lead is not really disputed (numbers vary between 1,166 and 1,417). It seems that the civilian casualties are extremely high. It cannot be contributed only to the fact that fighting takes place in urban areas. The question whether IDF feels free / is ordered to attack infrastructure and/or targets in vicinity of populated sites is a valid one. (E.g., pending court proceedings in Israel concerning attack on a house in Gaza which caused a number of civilian casualties even though civilian were directed by IDF to seek shelter in that house.)

    [I don't want to start a flame war. For the purpose of the discussion it doesn't matter if it's IDF or any other army. Also note that the numbers are estimated. I just think that consistent 50/50 combatant/civilian ratio seems awfully high.]
    Why not? That the fighting took part in populated urban area is an essential fact.

    To the point raised by Muck, the problem of a populated/urban area is amplified by the fact that Hams used civillian infrastructure for military purposes. And in doing so, that infrastructure is no longer civillian or protected.

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    Senior Member Korathv2's Avatar
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    Ok, I guess I didn't make myself clear. I just referred to IDF as an example. Let's assume the data to be true (for the purpose of the discussion) for a hypothetical army X. If an army "X" achieves the 50/50 ratio, is it something to be worried about? Is it an inherent characteristics of asymmetrical warfare (army X has to use its superior firepower to protect first are foremost its boots on the ground, hence the civilian casualties)? Is it possible to reduce the ratio? Are there any examples of a different performance? (Is it known what the ratio was for US and coalition forces during counter-insurgency campaigns in Irak? How does it look like in Afghanistan?)

    GB-EXT - it could be significant explanation for a territory like Gaza. It seems to be less valid for Lebanon. Therefore I think it's just a partial explanation.

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    Senior Member Mu-Meson's Avatar
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    [I don't want to start a flame war. For the purpose of the discussion it doesn't matter if it's IDF or any other army. Also note that the numbers are estimated. I just think that consistent 50/50 combatant/civilian ratio seems awfully high.]
    50/50 is high. In an ideal world. This world is anything but. But to place all the onus for avoiding civilian casualties on the IDF, or any military fighting asymmetrically in urban areas, is flawed. Hamas bears the overwhelming majority of the responsibility for placing those civilians in danger. Yes, IDF is responsible for communications ****ups, and such, but I'd say that each civilian death is 75% Hamas -25% IDF's fault.

    Remember, after the Jenin "Massacre", the civilian casualties was revised downwards by a whole order of magnitude. But only after the myth had been created, and spead globally by a media who gives an absurb amount of benefit of the doubt to Pallywood claims.

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    Senior Member BlackWarder's Avatar
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    You do realise that even 1 to 1 ratio is much better than any other army in the world, I think that the US and coalition ratio was 3/2 to 1.

    If we are to believe the IDF figures than the actual ratio is 0.5 to 1 (or 1 civilian to 2 militants) and that in dens urban battlefield.

    Warder
    Last edited by BlackWarder; 11-09-2010 at 12:12 PM. Reason: Spelling

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