Reply With QuoteOh yes, lets have a hobby analyst tell us what 80 million egyptians want, not what those 80 million are shouting at the top of their lungs.Originally Posted by SmoothieX12
Iran 1979 isnt Egypt 2011. Different countries, different times different people. If Iran 79 means that there should be no attempts at democracy in any countries with sizable Muslim population then some of you guys must have drank a bit too much cool aid.
Oh yes, lets have a hobby analyst tell us what 80 million egyptians want, not what those 80 million are shouting at the top of their lungs.
Sir, for "democracy" (an abused, misused and now a hollow (simulacra) word) to be a liberal democracy the nation has to go through, well, the centuries of cultural and industrial honing and have in the base of its law system SECULARISM. None of that is present ANYWHERE in the ME. Actually, word industrial and ME are oxymoron.
Yes, sir I, as a "hobby analyst", for several years guarded Soviet-Iranian border (actually went through the events very much like what they show now on TV but in Azerbajan), served also in Middle Asia, was born in Caucasus and some other relevant s.ht, BTW visited Maghreb too. Sure, how can I know when Muslims riot they always want liberal values NOT. Well, call it a hunch. You should also ask those TUDEH guys who thought they were bringing Iran into the modern era in 1979 until they began to be massacred.
Leaving that aside.
Main difference is different time,so here you have a point.Different countrees,well its irrelevant.
Different ppls: and what difference is there?MB influenced group in Egypt,no?Not every muslim country have groups similar to MB you know?
Anyway,there is no questions that democracy can be attempted,i dont think West is give support to Mubarak versus protesters,rather opposite.You think differently?
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Still islamic rule possible,so ppl will be wary of this revolution.Its not like it hurt protesters.
But is Egypt 2011 Russia 1917? Is it France 1789? It's not like revolutions haven't been hijacked by ideological nutjobs in non-Muslim countries. And the simple fact is that the most popular and best organized opposition group in Egypt is an avowedly theocratic party intent on destroying a neighboring country.
Actualy that its a different time is a biggest hope for this protests turning to something descent.Internet/more TV does matter.
The article does not refute the Egyptians (and other Arabs) desire for democracy. Did you even read it?
As a means, democracy is only a tool for distributing power. And even our own country is torn apart by deep divisions over how that power should be distributed. The entire ObamaCare debate, the gap between rights and entitlements, is a continuation of an ongoing 20th century debate over what the 'end' of government should be. Such debates are fairly rare outside of a handful of Western countries. The assumption throughout most of the world is that the role of government is to regulate everything for the benefit of the public. Even the current unrest in the Middle East is driven less by human rights, and more by frustration over the failure of regional governments to maintain low food and fuel prices. (It seems like quite a contrast when compared with the Tea Party, which protests to demand less regulation.)
You seem to think that you can apply history and experiences of some places to all muslim people as some mathematical calculations. People think differently, most Muslims have no desire to bring in sharia over their heads. Your interpretation of islam which leans exclusively on the worst groups of this religion doesnt speak for all muslims in this world as some sort of manifest they all signed under with their life. You can be a devout muslim and not want sharia, there are other things that motivates human being, emotions, desires and future interest. Even if that collides with your religion, and that is the same whether youre christian, hindu or whatever.
Your stance on democracy is soo unrelevant, just because ME countries havent followed in he same steps as Euro countries doesn't mean they cant have representational democracy where they elect they own leaders. They have an access to all things needed, education, journalists who write freely, access to foreign media etc.
Hi Beholder, I`m not saying that west is supporting mubarak, just that users on this forum are vouching for him.
About the islamic brotherhood,
users, here, are overplaying their size and their radicalism. Sure they have radicals within in them, but they are not the Taliban. And if they were I doubt theyll last in Egypt for long. An MB dictatorship would not last in Egypt.
Kamaz, that last part is true, but then there wont be a debate on what exact model or role a new democratic state would have when no such have even been in the pipedream.
Islam, will not be the main factor when outlining the look of a potential future structure. Even in the new Iraq, although mentioned a million times Islam had nothing to do with current structures. Instead it was all pure old politics, interests, individial interest of those involved, realpolitik, regional politics etc
When Egypt people and representatives one day will choose how they want to be governed, I sincerely doubt that many of them will think of Sharia. Ask 10 egyptians whats on their mind and you will see.
Sir, marked in color pretty much sums it up. Being a devout Muslim IS being a Sharia follower. As for Egypt, open its Constitution. I understand completely the fire and desire burning in your heart for Egypt to emerge a modern and democratic country--believe me, it is my sincere desire too, it's just that I have to face reality and hope for the best. If Egypt will emerge as a vibrant, secular, modern democracy (first in history of the ME)--I will be first to come here and announce myself to be a complete arrogant fool. But knowing the general state of the Arab world--I think Quran is preferred over Plato or Locke 99.99% of a time. That says something.
I really wonder why Mubarak has still not left his post.
Well, I guess we have to agree to that we both hope that you are wrong and that Im right.
This is precisely the case when I want myself to be wrong. Believe me.Well, I guess we have to agree to that we both hope that you are wrong and that Im right
I disagree,
lets say Egypt gets a fully democratic government tomorrow. When I think of democracy, I think of a system of government that protects its citizens and protects the rights of those citizens (freedom of speech, religion, expression, etc), as elected by the people. If tomorrow Egypt is democratic, its lawmakers and elected officials will not stray from the Islamic principles for fear of being thrown out of office. If an Egyptian Muslim was to renounce his faith, how likely is it that this new democratic Egyptian government provides him protection from the Koranic injunction to kill or jail 'apostates'??
As long as Muslim Arabs hold the Koran as near and dear to their culture and outlook as they do now, democracy wont do squat to advance their societies. THe Koran is present in every facet of life, whether you are a religious Muslim or a 'non practicing' Muslim. Democracy is a tool to elect leaders based on the people's desires, and there is where the problem lies in Muslim societies.
Separation of Mosque and State is unthinkable in this case.
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