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Thread: SAPS discussion and news

  1. #391

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    As an Ex South African Police Warrant Officer I am finding this Thread very difficult to follow it seems some posters are intent on slamming the police every opportunity they get there are a lot of Policemen who do damn good work who follow the Law and do everything they can to keep South Africans safe, I am going to unsubscribe from this thread because I just and stand it anymore.

  2. #392
    Senior Member playtym's Avatar
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    Eish! Sorry, MinAmmo, I don't make the news, just post it, and it would be pretty biased to only post the positive articles, wouldn't it?

    A ‘den of unlawfulness’

    The ministry of Police has referred a letter of complaint against the Sunnyside police station, including station commander Brigadier Papile Kekana, to the national police commissioner for further attention.
    This comes after lawyer Ebenezer Essilfie sent the letter to minister Nathi Mthethwa, commissioner General Bheki Cele and the national director of public prosecutions, calling the Sunnyside police a “den of unlawfulness, oppression and suppression of freedom”.
    Several police officers stationed at Sunnyside welcomed this, saying their complaints about Kekana had fallen on deaf ears up to now. “And no one dares to take him on. Our morale is very low,” one said.
    Essilfie’s letter stemmed from an incident when about 20 people had allegedly been held at the police station “well over the 48-hour period” within which they should have been brought before court.
    Some of these people had been in custody for four to six days and their constitutional rights had been “obnoxiously abused”, he said.
    This was confirmed by police members at the station, who said Kekana only freed these detainees after Essilfie had complained.
    However, Sunnyside police station denied this, saying those detained were prostitutes too scared to go back on the streets as their pimps allegedly abused them.
    Spokesman Sergeant Asnath Malatsi said the charges against them was for walking the streets and endangering their lives and those of motorists.
    She said five of the women appeared in court, the other five paid admission of guilt fines. “We have sent the majority of them to places of safety,” Malatsi added.
    Essilfie disagreed. He said his clients were given summonses to appear in court by the end of this month, or the beginning of next month.
    “The law stipulates that an arrested person must appear in court as soon as possible; within the first 48 hours,” he said.
    He went to the station after acquaintances of the detainees called him on January 10. When Essilfie demanded to know why they were being unlawfully held, he was apparently told this was on instruction of the station commissioner.
    His letter to the minister continued: “We humbly request that this disgraceful conduct be investigated and appropriate steps taken to curb such dictatorial and unlawful conduct by superior officers.”
    It also appeared that Kekana had issued orders that no arrested person be given police bail, as was the custom for minor offences, but should apply for bail in court, he said.
    Essilfie said this directly contravened the Criminal Procedure Act and the service directive given by the national commissioner to all police officers. His clients would bring a civil suit against Kekana and the police, he added.
    The minister’s office acknowledged receipt of the letter, saying the matter had been referred to the commissioner.
    Other legal representatives also complained. One said people would be arrested, but 24 hours later the stand-by prosecutor would withdraw charges, as there was not enough evidence.
    He confirmed that clients had opened civil cases against the Sunnyside police.
    Another said people would be locked up without legal grounds for doing so. An example were two girls charged with reckless driving, while the one was a passenger.
    Other lawyers said there were instances where people would be arrested for minor offences, then told they would only be released if they paid an admission of guilt fine – without being taken to court.
    The public also complained. “Sunnyside police would stand outside a nightclub. As you come out they arrest you for being drunk. They did not breathalyse or do a blood test on any of us.
    “They kept us overnight and said we could only go once we paid an admission of guilt fine,” one man exclaimed.
    None of these sources were willing to be identified, fearing retaliation from the police.
    Sunnyside officers claimed many of these complaints were as a result of orders by Kekana.
    They said he had called an inspector an “idiot” during a meeting in October. This officer opened a crimen injuria case but nothing has come of it.
    A constable was apparently called a “bastard” in front of colleagues. “He told us he will only speak to colonels and upwards.
    “If you have a lower rank, you can only speak to him if you have a colonel with you,” one complained.
    “He has cancelled any family responsibility leave,” another added.
    Although detectives have almost 120 dockets each to investigate, they were allegedly told that they had to effect an arrest if they wanted a vehicle to carry out investigations after hours.
    “We can’t get through all our work in normal hours, but we cannot go the extra mile as we cannot always guarantee an arrest,” some said. Kekana declined to comment, referring all enquiries to the police provincial spokesman Colonel Neville Malila who said they would comment once the allegations had been investigated.

  3. #393
    Senior Member baboon6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinAmmo View Post
    As an Ex South African Police Warrant Officer I am finding this Thread very difficult to follow it seems some posters are intent on slamming the police every opportunity they get there are a lot of Policemen who do damn good work who follow the Law and do everything they can to keep South Africans safe, I am going to unsubscribe from this thread because I just and stand it anymore.
    I think people (including myself) are criticising the command structure of the police, which clearly has some serious issues, more than the average member on the street. Ignoring problems won't make them go away.
    Last edited by baboon6; 01-31-2011 at 06:20 PM.

  4. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon6 View Post
    I think people (including myself) are criticising the command structure of the police, which clearly has some serious issues, more than the average member on the street. Ignoring problems won't make them go away.
    x2. On a personal level I think we all have much respect for the hardworking officers!

  5. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
    x2. On a personal level I think we all have much respect for the hardworking officers!
    Yes we/I def do,find the positives & I'll happily comment on them too!Reality aint always pretty!

    As a "liberal"(context '80's SA)I have a dejavu "hit squad" shiver that runs down my spine when people are start dying/commiting suicide under questionable circumstances.Those were also cops out of control,and the average member would have been embarresed back then too!Whether its a lack of leadership,"political" or vigilante type actions-its very poor training and selection,& control.Why should Joe Average pay with his life,have his rights trampled,be humiliated,etc?

    Good news reporting:

    http://www.peherald.com/news/article/618
    http://www.sapsjournalonline.gov.za/...=414&jid=25432

    Cpos arrest suspects after double murder over w/end.WELL DONE guys!!

    & not so good news:

    http://www.dispatch.co.za/news/article/477

    Other good news articles to be found here:

    http://www.sapsjournalonline.gov.za/...ellence&stid=3

  6. #396
    Senior Member baboon6's Avatar
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    To add to what I wrote above and to Curious George's post : I think one of the biggest problems is that the SAPS is becoming increasingly politicised, with some people owing their promotions and appointments more to their ANC credentials than to any qualifications. Cele is just one case; why was one of the deputy commissioners (like Andre Pruis, the acting commissioner between Selebi and Cele and a career policeman) not promoted to take Selebi's place? I would imagine because they are not seen as politically reliable. We've seen other crazy stuff recently like an officer on Cele's staff being promoted straight from constable to captain and another straight from captain to brigadier. What does this say to honest hard-working cops who have slaved away for years to get where they are? The Jannie Odendaal incident just illustrates that political concerns outweigh policing.

    Another thing that really scares me is the number of former and serving members involved in farm attacks and other serious criminal activity. Yes, some have been caught (otherwise we wouldn't really know would we?), and yes, they are a minority, but it seems to becoming more common. Have there been improvements in policing recently? Sure, probably, but is some of that just window dressing? Anyone who doesn't believe the SAPS (along with most South African government institutions to a greater or lesser degree) isn't in serious trouble is in need of a reality check.
    Last edited by baboon6; 02-01-2011 at 11:14 AM.

  7. #397
    Member curious george's Avatar
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    http://www.sundayindependent.co.za/c...ouse-1.1019314

    Sure mistakes happen,but nobody bothers to apologise/guard this dude's house from the (non-uniformed) crooks after they trash it & then to procede to just bugger off?

    http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Ne...s-van-20110201

    Should read:Modern day houdini escapes from keystone cops,manages to keep their car & scores 4 x free firearms,oh & bulletproof jacket. Not a copy writer but this could be used as a scipt for a bad cop movie spoof!Negligence or corruption? Take your pick!

    Sorry MinAmmo but this bunch are doing it to themselves!What reputation they are building for themselves,incl the guys that arent complete chops!

  8. #398
    Senior Member baboon6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by playtym View Post
    "Shoot to kill" comes home to roost?
    Are these Tactical Response Teams the guys I have seen around in blue berets and sunglasses?

  9. #399
    Senior Member playtym's Avatar
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    Dare I even post this....

    Cops rough up Pta photographer

    Pretoria - Police officers attempted to storm the Pretoria News building late on Friday afternoon in an apparent bid to arrest a photographer who had taken pictures of them arresting a suspected thief.
    A Pretoria News staff member said that the newspaper's chief photographer Masi Losi had rushed out of the building to take pictures of a mob that had caught a suspected thief.
    Police arrived and arrested the suspect, but then according to the staffer turned on Losi and attempted to take his camera.
    Other newspaper staff dragged Losi into the building and police demanded that they be allowed to enter the building and hand over the photographer and his camera.
    A senior police officer could later be seen in Vermeulen Street talking to Pretoria News executive editor Jos Charle as about 30 police officers milled around in the street. Numerous police vehicles were parked in the street with their lights flashing, watched by a large crowd.
    Charle confirmed the incident, saying he had seen the arrest of the thief from his office window and then the reaction of the officers to Losi taking pictures.

    He said he became alarmed when one of the officers shoved Losi to the ground and had his knee on his chest and another on his holster.

    "I went down. They threatened to arrest me as well," he said, adding the police had claimed that he was interfering with them.

    Charle said the police demanded that he hand over Losi and wanted to enter the Pretoria News building.

    He instructed the security personnel to keep the building closed preventing the police from entering.

    He said that he had received an apology from Gauteng Police Commissioner Lieutenant-General Mzwandile Petros, who he said had promised to investigate the incident.

  10. #400
    Member curious george's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by playtym View Post
    Dare I even post this....
    To paraphrase someone else:The tendency,for whatever reasons,seem to be that many members of the SAPS believe they are the law vs being law enforcement officers.Imo to these guys apartheid style policing is still the prefered methodology(20 yrs later),the constitution must really be just a nuisence!Oh,and the standard "apology" afterwards....,how about beter selection, training and supervision guys?

  11. #401
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    Was the "special" task force there?

  12. #402
    Senior Member baboon6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by playtym View Post
    Dare I even post this....
    Oh it gets better!

    Probe nails Cele

    'The lease deal is illegal and should be cancelled'


    Police chief "General" Bheki Cele's R500-million deal to relocate his headquarters was illegal and should have been cancelled through an urgent high court application.

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/sundaytim...obe-nails-Cele

    This is one of several explosive conclusions contained in official documents submitted to the Special Investigating Unit (SIU) and the public protector, who are both looking into the transaction.
    The contract with businessman and friend of President Jacob Zuma Roux Shabangu was exposed by the Sunday Times in August last year.
    Cele denied playing any role in driving the leasing of the building, saying he had merely signed a "needs assessment".
    However the state investigation reveals that:

    • Cele personally identified Sanlam Middestad as the building the SA Police Service's top brass and other units would move to - at least one week before a needs assessment was ever done for all this space;
    • The SAPS pressured officials from the Department of Public Works to push through the deal;
    • Just a year earlier the SAPS had rejected a significantly cheaper offer to lease the same building;
    • Shabangu negotiated the deal directly with the SAPS, which accepted and approved his terms, instead of dealing with public works;
    • Shabangu may have doctored the lease after it was signed, including by increasing the rental from R2.8-million a month to R3.3-million;
    • Top public works officials should have faced disciplinary action for their role in the debacle; and
    • The deal contravened the constitution, the Public Finance Management Act and Treasury regulations, and should not have been approved.

    Shabangu declined to answer detailed questions this week.

    But he admitted to having been grilled on the same issues by SIU head Willie Hofmeyr and the public protector.
    The investigation has also called into question the SAPS's claim that there was not enough time to put the lease out to tender as it urgently needed bigger office space for the 2010 Fifa World Cup communications centre.
    Cele and his top brass signed a memo stating there was no money available for the lease. However, the very next day, the funding was approved.
    The Sunday Times has also established that Shabangu showed the SAPS top brass "his" building weeks before he had concluded an agreement to purchase it.
    He has previously claimed that flouting tender rules was justifiable as Sanlam Middestad was the only suitable building available.
    The investigation, however, revealed that Sanlam Middestad was substandard and required "substantial renovations" before the police could move in.
    The revelations cast serious doubt on a decision in December by the Minister of Public Works, Gwen Mahlangu-Nkabinde, to honour the contract - just three weeks after taking office.
    Her predecessor, Geoff Doidge, was advised, before he was fired, to cancel the deal . He declined to comment .
    Cele, through his spokesman, Colonel McIntosh Polela, refused to answer detailed questions.
    "This issue is before the office of the public protector. It follows that the SAPS will not participate in this parallel process that you seek to subject it to," he said.
    Mahlangu-Nkabinde's spokesman, Obakeng Modikoe, undertook to respond to questions, but failed to do so.

  13. #403
    Senior Member playtym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon6 View Post
    Oh it gets better!
    So they've just proved what we 'knew' all along. First Selebi, now Cele, who's going to be next line at the SAPS gravy trough?

  14. #404
    Senior Member playtym's Avatar
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    Winnie highway clash - cops suspended

    Pretoria - Two policemen involved in an altercation with ANC veteran Winnie Madikizela-Mandela and her bodyguards have been suspended, a police spokesperson said on Monday.
    Colonel Neville Malila said Warrant Officer Jannie Odendaal and Constable Abel Twala were suspended with full salary and benefits pending the finalisation of disciplinary proceedings against them.
    Odendaal filed charges of defeating the ends of justice, assault and reckless and negligent driving against Madikizela-Mandela and her bodyguard at the Brooklyn Police Station on Friday.
    He and Constable Abel Twala stopped Madikizela-Mandela's car on the M1 north in Johannesburg in December because it was allegedly being driven recklessly at 150km/h.
    The policemen said they believed the silver Audi A6 with tinted windows was "suspicious".
    After stopping the vehicle, a bodyguard got out and told Odendaal that Madikizela-Mandela was in the car.
    An argument ensued between the bodyguards and the policemen.

    Intimidation

    The bodyguards have brought charges of pointing of a firearm and intimidation against the policemen.
    In line with police internal disciplinary regulations, the policemen were temporally transferred. They also had to hand in their guns.
    Odendaal's suspension was "highly suspicious" coming so soon after he laid the charges at the Brooklyn Police Station, Solidarity trade union's secretary general Dirk Hermann said in a statement on Monday.
    "The letter of suspension does not provide any reasons for his suspension, but does emphasise that should he be found guilty on the charge against him, he may face dismissal," said Hermann.
    Malila said the suspension were made in terms of the SA Police Service disciplinary regulations and that, should criminal proceedings be instituted against the two men, they could be suspended without benefits.
    "Charge sheets were drawn up last week and were due to be served on the members.
    "They were, however, not served when further information came to the attention of the employer which may result in additional charges being added to the charge sheets," he said.
    Hermann said the suspension of a police officer who was "merely doing his job" was cause for concern.
    "There is something wrong when police members have to turn a blind eye every time a political role-player commits an offence. When police members' jobs are at risk because they did their work, there is definitely reason to be concerned," he said.
    Apparently when you're an ANC member you are the law.

  15. #405
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    Very sad news considering how many corrupt and plain criminal army and police officers have been suspended for 1 - 2 years with full pay including increases.

    I hope someone sets up a fund to help these two good cops!!

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