Thread: Protests in Syria - Discussion Thread

  1. #2596
    Μολὼν λαβέ Hollis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomek29 View Post
    USA supplied Iraq with weapons after 1982.
    http://www.docstoc.com/docs/6499699/...3_E2_80_931990


    It says USA started openly supplying Iraq with weapons after 1982 and lists some helicopters sold
    MD-500MD Defender-30 sold , MD-530F- 26 sold, Hughes-300TH55-30 sold.

    It also says CIA supported Iraq with clandestine arms smuggling the extent of which is unknown.
    Maybe do more research. BTW the thread is about Syria. This issue has been discussed in depth on this forum. Instead of taking some site as being true, look at all the weapons Iraq had, they where SU and French. The other part it is amazing that there are some many people who seem to have forgotten how the cold war was fought.

    Iran with the Shah was pro-West. Iran had western weapons. Now you probably will blame the CIA, so where was the KGB or Stasi? Do you know they where there too?

    The revolution in Iran was a coalition of groups, with the Islamists, there was Communists, Socialists, Unionists, feminists, nationalists etc. Once the Shad was disposed there was the power struggle to control Iran from the various groups. 35,000 to 50,000 leftist where slaughtered by the Islamists.

    Now the cold war, Both East and West would try to seduce non-align countries and get countries committed to one side to change sides..... Egypt is a example.

    Iran was a non-align country and hostile to both US and Soviets. Saddam's Iraq, Ba'athists where socialist fronts for the Soviet Union basically. Saddam knew Iran has placed itself as a loner and where neither East nor West would support Iran. With the blessing of the Soviet Union, Saddam invaded Iran. Now you need to know about the war ........ you can research that.

    The US and West did not want Iran to fall within the influence of the Soviets. Iran was being defeated and with it's western weapons, supplies being pleated, Iraq was figured to win.

    Now the CIA did not support Iraq, go research the Iran-Contra affair. The People in the US were very hostile to supporting Iran, Reagan's knew Iran could not fall to the Iraq. Support for Iran ended around 1985. By then the Iran was able to reverse any Iraqi gains and look like they would defeat Iraq. The US offered the hand of friendship, the Guardian Council...... basically said. "piss off". Western supported ended and the war dragged on for about 3 more very bloody years.

    I bet you never though about the KGB involvement? Ever read anything about them? That is a sure clue to BS, all about the CIA and no KGB.

    If the US did anything, it would have been in line with what Happened in Egypt, Moving Egypt out of the Soviet camp and into the Western camp. To view history at that time and ignoring the cold war is a error.

    Anyways, this thread is about Syria, lets stay there.

    BTW, your video or what ever never loaded.

    I also knew a number of people who where involved in all of this. As I mentioned, Israel was the supply terminal to get weapons to Iran. Something the Iranian government will not admit today.

    Even more comical is that Russia who was the major supplier (as the Soviet Union) to Iraq is supplying Iran today.

    The other comedy, is the free ride that the Soviet Union and the KGB gets from people. As if they never existed. Change your name to Russia and FSB, and it is all good.

  2. #2597
    Banned User Laworkerbee's Avatar
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    Solid post -H-!

    One thing I would like to add to avoid confusion is the hostages in Lebanon and how they were used to secure spare parts and munitions by Iran from the West. The mission to free those hostages was the primary driver in Iran-Contra IMHO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hollis View Post
    Maybe do more research
    The information comes from SIPRI

    Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) is an independent international institute dedicated to research into conflict, armaments, arms control and disarmament. Established in 1966, SIPRI provides data, analysis and recommendations, based on open source, to policymakers, researchers, media and the interested public.

    The Foreign Policy Think Tank Index ranked SIPRI as the #3 non-U.S. think tank in the world in 2009.
    Now you probably will blame the CIA, so where was the KGB or Stasi? Do you know they where there too?
    Hmm? I simply corrected your error. After 1983 West supported Iraq and supplied it with weapons.

    BTW, your video or what ever never loaded.
    Oh I am sorry, It was a copy of SIPRI database. Here you go, I found it is on Wiki

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIPRI_A...973–1990

    It contains the same information:

    United States MD-500MD Defender Light Helicopter 1983 30
    United States Hughes-300/TH-55 Light Helicopter 1983 30
    United States MD-530F Light Helicopter 1986 26
    United States Bell 214ST Helicopter 1988 31
    So as you see, you were incorrect that USA didn't supply Iraq with weapons.

    As to CIA support, according to Howard Teicher who served as Director for the Near East and South Asia and Senior Director for Political-Military Affairs on the staff of the National Security Council from 1982 to 1987, and worked under Presidents Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan at the Departments of State and Defense:
    http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/iraq61.pdf
    [FONT=Courier New][SIZE=2] CIA Director Casey personally spearheaded the effort to ensure that Iraq had sufficient military weapons, ammunition and vehicles to avoid losing the Iran-Iraq war. Pursuant to the secret NSDD, the United States actively supported the Iraqi war effort by supplying the Iraqis with billions of dollars of credits, by providing U.S. military intelligence and advice to the Iraqis, and by closely monitoring third country arms sales to Iraq to make sure that Iraq had the military weaponry required. The United States also provided strategic operational advice to the Iraqis to better use their assets in combat. For example, in 1986, President Reagan sent a secret message to Saddam Hussein telling him that Iraq should step up its air war and bombing of Iran. This message was delivered by Vice President Bush who communicated it to Egyptian President Mubarak, who in turn passed the message to Saddam Hussein. Similar strategic operational military advice was passed to Saddam Hussein through various meetings with European and Middle Eastern heads of state. I authored Bush's talking points for the 1986 meeting with Mubarak and personally attended numerous meetings with European and Middle East heads of state where the strategic operational advice was communicated.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Courier New][SIZE=2] 8. I personally attended meetings in which CIA Director Casey or CIA Deputy Director Gates noted the need for Iraq to have certain weapons such as cluster bombs and anti-armor penetrators in order to stave off the Iranian attacks. When I joined the NSC staff in early 1982, CIA Director Casey was adamant that cluster bombs were a perfect "force multiplier" that would allow the Iraqis to defend against the "human waves" of Iranian attackers. I recorded those comments in the minutes of National Security Planning Group ("NSPG") meetings in which Casey or Gates participated.[/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=Courier New][SIZE=2] 9. The CIA, including both CIA Director Casey and Deputy Director Gates, knew of, approved of, and assisted in the sale of non-U.S. origin military weapons, ammunition and vehicles to Iraq. My notes, memoranda and other documents in my NSC files show or tend to show that the CIA knew of, approved of, and assisted in the sale of non-U.S. origin military weapons, munitions and vehicles to Iraq.[/SIZE][/FONT]
    I hope that clears things up. After 1983 USA supported Iraq. I have no opinion on the political significance. I am not attached emotionally to any side in Middle East, and have no political favourites.
    But since I studied the conflict during my university years(studied international relations-what a waste) I knew that and wanted to correct some mistakes.
    Now that this misunderstanding is over, let's indeed return to Syria.

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    Banned User Laworkerbee's Avatar
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    Wow you took unarmed helicopters and equated them with the millions of tons of munitions supplied by the Soviet Union, China and Europe. That's like a pebble on top of a mountain but whatever, if this helps you sleep better at night than so be it.

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    Syrian Kurds seen as revolt’s wild card

    [LEFT][*******#000000][FONT=Georgia]IRBIL, Iraq — Syria’s long-oppressed Kurdish minority is emerging as a key wild card with the potential to boost the momentum of a scattered and beleaguered opposition movement as a year-old revolt appears poised to become more violent.
    [/FONT][/COLOR][*******#000000][FONT=Georgia]So far, the Kurds have not been enthusiastic supporters of the wider revolution, which is primarily led by Syria’s Sunni Arab majority and has increasingly taken on sectarian overtones. They remain fearful that a new government dominated by Sunnis could deepen their marginalization.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    more on: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...9yR_story.html

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    During the cold war, morals, ethics and human rights took a back sit to real politik. Enemy of my enemy is my friend was the guiding principle for both sides of the isle. Today, it's neither morals nor fairplay that drives modern foreign policy, but national interests, regional interests and interests of allies (directly or indirectly).

    Western foreign policy in the ME has never been about good guys vs bad guys or oppressor and oppressed. It's been about interests. Middle Easterners hate each other more than they do anybody else contrary to conventional wisdom regarding their feelings towards the "Zionist" and "evil America". In the ME there will always be an oppressor and oppressed, it's just about who's doing what to whom. In Syria, the so called "activists" will be ones doing the killing there if the current regime is deposed. Israel said they are preparing Golan Heights for Alawi refuges should the regime fall. Even they aren't delusional about the facts there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laworkerbee View Post
    Wow you took unarmed helicopters and equated them with the millions of tons of munitions supplied by the Soviet Union, China and Europe. That's like a pebble on top of a mountain but whatever, if this helps you sleep better at night than so be it.
    2X.................. Me thinketh he is too blind to see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laworkerbee View Post
    Wow you took unarmed helicopters .
    MD 500 Defender is an armed helicopter.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonne...D_500_Defender

    The resulting design was the Model 500MD Defender which first flew in 1976. It was tailored for specific roles including unarmed observation and an armed scout helicopter equipped with TOW anti-tank missiles. An anti-submarine version was developed with a search radar, magnetic anomaly detector and the capability to carry lightweight aerial torpedoes.
    I don't deny that Soviet Union sold more. But the claim that USA didn't support Iraq and didn't sell weapons to Iraq is false.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomek29 View Post
    MD 500 Defender is an armed helicopter.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonne...D_500_Defender



    I don't deny that Soviet Union sold more. But the claim that USA didn't support Iraq and didn't sell weapons to Iraq is false.
    Support is a interesting term. From your own link, of SIPRI. Technically yeah, even if the US gave one bullet to Saddam that could be call support. Compared to SU, it was not support. Now compared what the West gave Iran. Also this may be to complicate for you, but review Egypt, During the days of Sadat, from Baathist pro Soviet Union to repositioning himself with the West.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hollis View Post
    Support is a interesting term. From your own link, of SIPRI. Technically yeah, even if the US gave one bullet to Saddam that could be call support. Compared to SU, it was not support. Now compared what the West gave Iran.
    It was smaller support but still support. The overall weapons sales(official) are within 200 million dollars IIRC. Of course the extent secret support by CIA remains unknown(although I doubt it exceeded the Soviet one). Still that means that USA did sell weapons to Iraq.
    It should also be noted that there is an allegation that the Bell helicopters were used in gassing of Kurds in 1988.

    Additionally USA sold many duel-use military items, for example 2,000 heavy trucks worth 224 million dollars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomek29 View Post
    It was smaller support but still support. The overall weapons sales(official) are within 200 million dollars IIRC. Of course the extent secret support by CIA remains unknown(although I doubt it exceeded the Soviet one). Still that means that USA did sell weapons to Iraq.
    It should also be noted that there is an allegation that the Bell helicopters were used in gassing of Kurds in 1988.

    Additionally USA sold many duel-use military items, for example 2,000 heavy trucks worth 224 million dollars.

    Not even came close. 0.5% is not much, see below. So can we get back to Syria, I think the KGB, Stasi and the SU appreciate your support.

    tr.v. supĚportĚed, supĚportĚing, supĚports. 1. To bear the weight of,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hollis View Post
    I think the KGB, Stasi and the SU appreciate your support.
    A strange statement. I simply corrected a mistake. Are you insisting that SIPRI should falsify data and I should lie? I am afraid you are seeing ideological warriors where there are none. It is a fact that USA did support Iraq after 1982 and this included sales of military items. That is all.

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    More valuable than butter and bullets was the satellite and targetting information the United States provided to Iraq.

    Can we move on now?

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    Thanks Hollis for your post #2596.
    It is a "Bigger Picture" of sorts....Too many people like to look for blame when reflecting, whether it be the time through their own life, or just history through time. I've found what works for me is to let go thoughts of blame (no one is perfect), and look to understand. Too often, emotions and the 'un-revenged' acts of the past can blind/hinder understanding as a whole. Thanks for your thoughts/input.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hollis View Post
    Let see what history says:

    Russian/Soviet Union armed:

    Iraq, they go to war, also supplies Hezbullah, Hamas and others
    Syria, they go to war, also Syria, supplies Hezbullah, and messes over Lebanon
    Egypt, they go to war, they then change supplier, see below.
    Iran........ Should be pissed at Russian/Soviet Union but when you bite the hand that has helped you, then any supplier that can provide. Now also supplies Hezbullah, Hamas and others

    US armed: Egypt, they stop going to war
    Yemenis, they don't go to war, Internal conflict
    Saudis, they have fancy toys, lots of them, not quite sure how to use them
    Kuwaitis, they don't go to way, they got invaded by Soviet/Russian supplied country
    Sudanese............ a mess

    Just noticed this post which started this discussion. That's a very biased opinion. After all USA supported Khmer Rouge and they weren't exactly peaceful...

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