Protests in Syria - Discussion Thread

[Camera]

well documented as primarily attacking civilians???

You are eager to point out that Assad isn't facing only Islamists while making the argument that Syrian attack choppers are meant to attack civilians....quite the irony.

You free to believe Assad is facing ONLY ISLAMISTS.

You are the one that is too eager to ignore the nature of the regime to which these weapons are delivered and the crimes that are comminted there... This not an acceptable way to fight rebels even if they were all Islamists.

[Camera]

This would give you some insight why the Syrian crysis is a domestic issue for Russia and why Russia will stick to its guns.
Just notice, that the author is too optimistic and almost all mentioned "opposition figures" there have almost zero influence in Russia even in rather liberal Moscow.

http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20120614/174032390.html

Interesting read.

[Universals]

You free to believe Assad is facing ONLY ISLAMISTS.

You are the one that is too eager to ignore the nature of the regime to which these weapons are delivered and the crimes that are comminted there... This not an acceptable way to fight rebels even if they were all Islamists.

You wan't us to believe that the choppers are primarily meant to attack civilians while Islamists and militants run wild? Believe what you want.

[gresh]

.....I get the point, every civilian death is a tragedy, but pretending that the only recourse is to ask Russia to cease Syrian choppers is a bit silly? How about stopping Turkey, KSA and rest of them from arming and financing the militants and Islamist's? These Islamist are using civilian deaths to gain leverage, for them dying civilians is more propaganda than anything else. wonder why they say that they don't want booths on the ground, just aerial support to destroy Assad's military assets?

I wish both sides would just stand down. If there was some actual way to implement a ceasefire tomorrow, I'd be all for it. It's not going to happen, though. It's been Syrian government policy to target civilians who support the opposition from the get go. The more civilians he kills, the more he fuels the armed resistance against him. A lot of the FSA and groups like that feel like this is a fight to protect Syrian posterity. Sure, there's Islamist's with other motives, but that seems to be the mentality of most of the opposition who outnumber the Islamists tenfold. Kidnapping and torturing families to coax FSA members to turn themselves in is not "fighting Islamists", it's state terrorism.

Even spokesmen for the Air Force Intelligence Directorate has said themselves that they're holding family members of known opposition figures. The last case I read about was an entire family with grandparents, mother's and infants. I'm pretty sure they're going to be executed and dumped just like happens every single day.

[Camera]

You wan't us to believe that the choppers are primarily meant to attack civilians while Islamists and militants run wild? Believe what you want.

The regime employs there a "weapon" that is "primarily meant to attack civilians" and it is the Shabiha militia. This is already a sufficient reason to deny any military support to such regime.

Now, the choppers, like the artillery, may not be "primarily meant to attack civilians" but in the way they are emplyed, they do it in an inacceptable proportion.

[Universals]

The regime uses a there "weapon" that is "primarily meant to attack civilians" and it is the Shabiha militia. This is already a sufficient reason to deny any military support to such regime.

Now, the choppers, like the artillery, may not be "primarily meant to attack civilians" but the way they are emplyed they do it in an inacceptable proportion.

The parochial view of certain folks isn't helping matters. You mean to say that there isn't sufficient reason not to continue arming and financing a shadowy opposition? I'm not against denying help to Assad, I'm against taking one side, arming the opposition while trying to weaken Assad. This whole argument about the attack helicopters is mostly about denying Assad a perceived advantage rather than being about the civilians caught in the crossfire. Because you and I know that with or with those choppers the body count will continue to rise.

[Camera]

The parochial view of certain folks isn't helping matters. You mean to say that there isn't sufficient reason not to continue arming and financing a shadowy opposition? I'm not against denying help to Assad, I'm against taking the opposition side, arming them while trying to weaken Assad. This whole argument about the attack helicopters is mostly about denying Assad a "perceived" advantage than it is about the civilians caught in the crossfire. Because you and I know that with or with those choppers the body count will continue to rise.

We were discussing arming Assad wholeads his military operations with tactics and strategists of a TERRORIST. Besides the Shabiha, the murders, the tortures... the way he uses heavy weapons is completely analogue to the terror attacks that were carried there by AQ!

You may argue about the interests of Russia to support its ally, but you can't deny the terrorist nature of his regime and of his actions.

[Universals]

We were discussing arming Assad that leads his military operations with tactics and strategists of a TERRORIST. Besidesn the Shabiha, the murders, the tortures, the way he uses the heavy weapons is completely analogue to the terror attacks that were carried there by AQ!

You may argue about the interests for Russia to support its ally, but you can't deny the terrorist nature of his regime and of his actions.

I'm not Russian, I don't argue about interest of Russians, I simply call it as I see it....not my fault that I don't agree with your position. You are the one that's arguing based on the interests of Israel (defanging the Hezzys), which is a noble course BTW, but ignoring every other aspect of the issue isn't in everyone's best interest. And yea, opposition never murders, or torturer or kidnaps right?

[gresh]

And yea, opposition never murders, or torturer or kidnaps right?

Sure they do. If somebody shelled your town for over a year and killed people you now, wouldn't you want to kidnap, torture and then kill them? It began as peaceful protests and spiraled into this.

Assad created the monster that is now the armed opposition because of his policies.

[Universals]

Sure they do. If somebody shelled your town for over a year and killed people you now, wouldn't you want to kidnap, torture and then kill them? It began as peaceful protests and spiraled into this.

Assad created the monster that is now the armed opposition because of his policies.

That's obviously part of the story, but not the whole story. KSA marched 2000 troops into Bahrain to help suppress opposition there while stirring the pot in Syria, Ignoring the sectarian based support for the opposition that came from the same folks that were suppressing uprising elsewhere, will do us no favors. Foreign interference played a big part in creating the monster that is the opposition. Also, I don't see why I should support a monster regardless of it's origins.

[Camera]

I'm not Russian, I don't argue about interest of Russians, I simply call it as I see it....not my fault that I don't agree with your position.

I see you are American, but you are advocating the issues just like if you were paid by Puttin's FM.
Opinions and perceptions could be discussed. Proven facts should not be.

You are the one that's arguing based on the interests of Israel (defanging the Hezzys), which is a noble course BTW, but ignoring every other aspect of the issue isn't in everyone's best interest.

1/ Nothing in my arguments on the topic we are discussing was related to Israel's interests, and I did not mention Hezbollah.

2/ As you brought the Hezzies to the discussion, you should know this terror group killed hundreds of French people and hundreds of Americains, besides killing Israelis and people of other nationalities...
Providing weapons to this terror group is illegal following a UNSCR and Hezbollah has to be disarmed following a UNSCR.
In the best case, you ignored these facts. In the worst one, you may think the Hezzis are "acceptable" terrorists, because they support Assad.

And yea, opposition never murders, or torturer or kidnaps right?

Here comes the argument: "the others do it too".
There are fractions of the opposition that do too indeed, to an unclear extent. But whatever this extent might be, it does not legitimize, and can not legitimize, a state policy like the one that is applied by Assad's regime nor the extent to which it is applied.

[Camera]

Sure they do. If somebody shelled your town for over a year and killed people you now, wouldn't you want to kidnap, torture and then kill them? It began as peaceful protests and spiraled into this.

Assad created the monster that is now the armed opposition because of his policies.

X2
That's why I was arguing months ago for international intervention. The only way to end well this conflict was to topple Assad as quick as possible.
We saw the MB and AQ joigning the fight. More time passes, more atrocities will occur and more people will be radicalized.

[Universals]

I see you are American, but you are advocating the issues just like if you were paid by Puttin's FM.
Opinions and perceptions could be a mutter of discussion. Proven facts should not be.



1/ Nothing in my arguments on the topic we are discussing was related to Israel's interests, and I did not mention Hezbollah.

2/ As you brought the Hezzies to the discussion, you should know this terror group killed hundreds of French people and hundreds of Americains, besides killing Israelis and people of other nationalities...
Providing weapons to this terror group is illegal following a UNSCR and Hezbollah has to be disarmed following a UNSCR.
In the best case, you ignored these facts. In the worst one, you may think the Hezzis are "acceptable" terrorists, because they support Assad.



Here comes the argument: the others do it too.
There are fractions of the opposition that do too indeed, to an unclear extent. But whatever this extent might be, it does not legitimize, and can not legitimize, a state policy like the one that is applied.

If I talk like Putin's FM, then you talk like BB's spokesman.
I'm not oblivious of Hezzys rap-sheet over the years, neither am I oblivious of the rap-sheet of AQ and their likes. I won't substitute one for the other. Plenty of pundits and experts are concerned about the opposition and it's composition and many fear that what comes after Assad could indeed be worse. They are not all paid by Assad or the Russians. You tend to be very selective of your "facts" while you accuse me of ignoring them. Furthermore, I find your your talk of me regarding Hezbola as "acceptable" terrorists (because they support Assad) quite offensive.
Since, I don't want to get banned going tit for tat with you, I won't bother replying your comments henceforth and I hope you'll do the same.

[DasVivo]

I see you are American, but you are advocating the issues just like if you were paid by Puttin's FM.
Opinions and perceptions could be discussed. Proven facts should not be.

Who carse if his view is the same as the Russian Foreign Office, its his view and its actually shared by many People who are not exactly keen to go rushing in to support a murky 'organisation' that has even murkier outside backing during the middle of what appears to be a sectarian conflict... Throw in the facts of obvious double standards from groups condemning the violence in Syria whilst subsequently sending their troops to help foreign neighbors put down dissent and or arming oppressing regimes and its a tragic joke really...

I hate whats happening to innocent People in Syria, its messed up.. But I see a high likelyhood that there are innocent People on all sides and that its not my place at all as a foreigner to dictate what goes on there... Whoever wins this I suspect will likely act out against the vanquished, certain groups will probably flee en masse and its just going to be messy no matter what happens..
Only those with a stake in the game will seriously place bets with either side and then its certainly not a moral choice but a mixture of geopolitical/trade/religious-cultural one....

X2
That's why I was arguing months ago for international intervention. The only way to end well this conflict was to topple Assad as quick as possible.
We saw the MB and AQ joigning the fight. More time passes, more atrocities will occur and more people will be radicalized.

Conversely the only way to end this is to crush dissent as quickly as possible... I mean it worked in bahrain.... (Note: I am not actually advocating that it is what should happen, but stating that to win you simply have to support A over B is not necessarily anymore likely than B over A at this point)

Granted I definitely agree with you that as the conflict goes on its only going to get more savage, thats an eventuality of most conflicts of internal/sectarian nature crimes cause more crimes...
But if these Rebels are not careful they are only going to incite their opponents to fight twice as hard to win and further encourage nations whom are already skeptical of them that they were right

[Camera]

If I talk like Putin's FM, then you talk like BB's spokesman.

We were discussing the Russian hellicopters. I'm not aware of any statement made about them by "BB's spokesman".
Do you have a link to sustain your claim?

I'm not oblivious of Hezzys rap-sheet over the years, neither am I oblivious of the rap-sheet of AQ and their likes. I won't substitute one for the other.

So how the Hezzies were relevant to the topic? Why did you brought them to the discussion?

Plenty of pundits and experts are concerned about the opposition and it's composition and many fear that what comes after Assad could indeed be worse. They are not all paid by Assad or the Russians.

This is another topic, and it has nothing to do with the choppers and the war crimes that are commited by Assad.

You tend to be very selective of your "facts" while you accuse me of ignoring them.

Really? Which ones?

Furthermore, I find your your talk of me regarding Hezbola as "acceptable" terrorists (because they support Assad) quite offensive.

It wasn't offensive in any way.
There were only ways IMO to interpret your Hezzbollah/Israel argumentation in the context of your last posts. I detailed both of them: either you ignored facts either you considered this terror group as legitime, for a reason I presumed (support to Assad).

If there was as third one and you meant something else... Please elaborate.

Since, I don't want to get banned going tit for tat with you, I won't bother replying your comments henceforth and I hope you'll do the same.

Why "banned"? Am I a mod?

IMHO you are out of arguments: no "facts" to remind (on which I was allegedly selective) nor else to say.