Thread: Russian Armed Forces News & Discussion thread

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    Member fmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyde View Post
    Just a hint, whether the ammo is in two pieces or in one piece doesn't make any performance difference.
    It seems that I was misinformed at some point around the autoloader. Still, I can't understand its penetration as the penetrator still appears to be kinda shorter than M829A3(800?mm vs 740?mm). Or are they using different methods to display penetration capabilities?

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    Senior Member Hyde's Avatar
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    Just as with the number of pieces, you assume the wrong thing, the absolute lenght isn't proportional to the performance. Not saying it doesn't have an effect, it obviously does, but you can not directly deduce the penetration capabilites from the lenght of the sabot alone, the gun and propellant also play a part, and are which gives the round the energy in the first place. If it was the other way around, a "western" round which is shorter achieving the same penetration as a Russian round which is longer, you would take it for granted and attribute it to some imaginary superiority and sophistication in "Western" engineering.

    If the round in question is longer and requires the new autoloader and is supposed to be used by T-90A or T-90MS and above, maybe the penetration figures were achieved using another gun, namely the newest 2A46M-5 or 2A82.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fmaster View Post
    It seems that I was misinformed at some point around the autoloader. Still, I can't understand its penetration as the penetrator still appears to be kinda shorter than M829A3(800?mm vs 740?mm). Or are they using different methods to display penetration capabilities?
    Penetration is a function of materials used, length to width ratio of the penetrator, construction of the round (how much energy is lost on the sabot for example), and the total kinetic energy of the round. Increasing penetration is not as simple as making the round longer. And anyway, the new upgraded T-90 autoloaders can accept rounds of up to 750mm long I think (thats not including the propellant charge).

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    Member fmaster's Avatar
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    I'm not saying that Russian technology is primitive. I'm a rather Russian weaponry admirer. I just thought that Russia might be quite more advanced in such areas like material engineering/metallurgy than the United States if they could achieve same penetration with some 60mm shorter penetrator as the lengthening the penetrator without breaking the balance of overall ballistic performance is the most critical factor for the penetration anyway, and Russian 125mm guns like 2A46M-5 has somewhat less chamber pressure compared to western Rheinmetall 120mm(at least I heard so. If not, please enlighten me).

    Regardless, thank you all for the infomations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fmaster View Post
    I'm not saying that Russian technology is primitive.
    Nope, you were saying that, because you've confused penetration ability with the penetrator length, while there's no direct dependency. There's a correlation, but that's it. There are many other variables in the equation, such as a mass of the sabot, powder charge, type of powder, all of which would determine a chamber pressure and thus (if you factor in the overall mass of the projectile, both sabot and penetrator) a muzzle velocity, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by fmaster View Post
    and Russian 125mm guns like 2A46M-5 has somewhat less chamber pressure compared to western Rheinmetall 120mm(at least I heard so. If not, please enlighten me).
    Aren't you answering your own question here? Lower chamber pressure would probably require a longer penetrator to achieve the same ability.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fmaster View Post
    I'm not saying that Russian technology is primitive. I'm a rather Russian weaponry admirer. I just thought that Russia might be quite more advanced in such areas like material engineering/metallurgy than the United States if they could achieve same penetration with some 60mm shorter penetrator as the lengthening the penetrator without breaking the balance of overall ballistic performance is the most critical factor for the penetration anyway, and Russian 125mm guns like 2A46M-5 has somewhat less chamber pressure compared to western Rheinmetall 120mm(at least I heard so. If not, please enlighten me).

    Regardless, thank you all for the infomations.
    The initial 2A46 gun peak pressure of 5100bar (on par with the M256 L44 gun of the M1A1), the 2A46M-1 and later guns have peak pressure up to 6500bar. This gun is in use since 1981 and on all the modern Russian tanks. So I'm not sure where you get the lower peak pressure idea from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by void View Post
    The initial 2A46 gun peak pressure of 5100bar (on par with the M256 L44 gun of the M1A1), the 2A46M-1 and later guns have peak pressure up to 6500bar. This gun is in use since 1981 and on all the modern Russian tanks. So I'm not sure where you get the lower peak pressure idea from.
    Aha, that'd mean that I'm wrong here too. I was under impression that it's somewhere around 5500-5700 bar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khathi View Post
    Aha, that'd mean that I'm wrong here too. I was under impression that it's somewhere around 5500-5700 bar.
    I point you to Vasiliy Fofanov's page on Russian armour, which is a fairly good source on this stuff on the internet (although a little outdated now):
    http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/

  9. #2709
    Senior Member Hyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fmaster View Post
    I'm not saying that Russian technology is primitive.
    I'm not saying that you are saying that, I am just saying that the opposite thought ("Western" or "Israeli" being regarded and accepted as superior by default, without question, and the on-par-esness or superiority of Russian designs being doubtet and questioned by default) is engrained into our heads by our surroundings, and that that is the source for your doubts and questions. Always just imagine everything you are confronted with as if it was the other way around, and see how you would feel and what you would think then.

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    Senior Member metberkut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by void View Post
    And anyway, the new upgraded T-90 autoloaders can accept rounds of up to 750mm long I think (thats not including the propellant charge).
    Upgraded as in on MS? Or are they being upgraded for the in service T-90A's?

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    IIRC, MO stated their intent to bring up all T-72 and T-90 to at least the T-90A standard (which can use longer APFSDS). To this end they might end up simply ordering the turret of T-90MS into production, and then put it onto older chassis, which will also bring a new FCS and optics to them. But I'm now sure how well would it sit economically, not to mention whether it would actually fit without a redesign. OTOH, the current plan for the armor force it to go on with the upgrading the current fleet, and this is one of the most logical steps in this direction.

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    Banned user Flamming_Python's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyde View Post
    I'm not saying that you are saying that, I am just saying that the opposite thought ("Western" or "Israeli" being regarded and accepted as superior by default, without question, and the on-par-esness or superiority of Russian designs being doubtet and questioned by default) is engrained into our heads by our surroundings, and that that is the source for your doubts and questions. Always just imagine everything you are confronted with as if it was the other way around, and see how you would feel and what you would think then.
    It's funny, in Russia it's pretty much accepted that our technology is the best in the world, and it is the Western efforts that have to be 'questioned' (although its acknowledged that in some areas they unquestionably surpass us)

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    This is pure speculation but would it not be possible, given the larger caliber of the bore of the gun, that the Russian penetrator is a touch thicker so as to provide it with more mass and thus penetrative ability? Could this account for some of the performance that we're not able to explain through materials or penetrator length?

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    Malaysia has apparently shown some interest in the T-90MS
    http://lenta.ru/news/2012/04/16/t90s/

    МЧС to order two An-124
    http://lenta.ru/news/2012/04/16/ruslan/
    Restarting the production of these beauties was one of the best decisions taken these past years.

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    Senior Member Herman the II's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamming_Python View Post
    It's funny, in Russia it's pretty much accepted that our technology is the best in the world, and it is the Western efforts that have to be 'questioned' (although its acknowledged that in some areas they unquestionably surpass us)
    Isn't that a quite common point of view!? Everybody is somewhat nationalistic, regardless if its about technology, beer or whatnot...

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