India began trials of the new upgraded local made Arjun Mk-II MBT

[Kunal Biswas]

That depends on how the composites armour evolves and how each nation develops it , No two nations will have the exact same composition to achieve a certain level of protection. Some might be better then the other which is equal protection with less armour ,hence reduction in armour weight.

That is true, But no matter what kind of Composite Armour you like to use today it have its weight, Weight that includes all the composite material including composite metal plates..

Like a Relikt ERA weighs the same as K-5 but offers 4-5 times better protection without adding 4-5 times more wiight , so armour do evolve.

ERA & Both composite Armour are evolving, But in case of composite Armour the weight is increasing but not the same..

Well you can always apply ERA over more armour but you end up with If course if you hit the same spot twice for any armour you will achive better result be it composite or ERA plus composite.

What i told ERA cannot tank a double shot on its surface unlike main Composite Armour..

So neither can a 70 T tank offer a same protection as 100 T one all things being equal,far more weight and there is a optimum weight versus protection you need keeping into account logistics for tactical and strategic movements.

Put a bigger engine, Wider tracks and have all tactical equipment to support it..

In that sense yes 100 ton will have more protection, But that is to much for this era..

[AustinJ]

That is true, But no matter what kind of Composite Armour you like to use today it have its weight, Weight that includes all the composite material including composite metal plates.

Ofcourse or for same weight they may offer better protection.

ERA & Both composite Armour are evolving, But in case of composite Armour the weight is increasing but not the same..

Well we really dont know for all it could be for the same weight they may offer better protection like ERA.

What i told ERA cannot tank a double shot on its surface unlike main Composite Armour..

Behind the ERA there is still the armour to deal with , so if a composite armour takes double shot then it would still be bad and ERA and Composite armour takes a double shot it still is bad.....there is no difference between two.

Put a bigger engine, Wider tracks and have all tactical equipment to support it..

Bigger Engine means higher fuel consumption.

Wider Tracks means if the area is mined you are more vulnerable compared to smaller track for same area , plus now you need more power to move as you are exposed to more area on ground.

If Wider Track was the solution for all things ground pressure then we would have seen wide use of such tracks in Western and Eastern system.

In that sense yes 100 ton will have more protection, But that is to much for this era..

Some one would argue even a 70 T is too much ....there is no fix rule for weight

[Kunal Biswas]

Ofcourse or for same weight they may offer better protection.

Doubtful..

For now..

Well we really dont know for all it could be for the same weight they may offer better protection like ERA.

We do know..

Behind the ERA there is still the armour to deal with , so if a composite armour takes double shot then it would still be bad and ERA and Composite armour takes a double shot it still is bad.....there is no difference between two.

Absolutely not, Huge difference...

A Heavy era can be destroyed by a RPG-7V but the same RPG-7V cannot kill a Heay tank but surely a Light tank or any-other Lightly or medium tank..

It depend what kind of Armour is behind the ERA to deal with..

Bigger Engine means higher fuel consumption.

Not necessarily..

New generation engines consume same fuel consumption but output is more..

Wider Tracks means if the area is mined you are more vulnerable compared to smaller track for same area , plus now you need more power to move as you are exposed to more area on ground.If Wider Track was the solution for all things ground pressure then we would have seen wide use of such tracks in Western and Eastern system.

Who ever came with this theroy dont have idea how pressure mine works, A pressure mine can be triggered by a BMP if it is close not even top of it directly..

Pressure mines have certain pressure weight when they explode, When a heavy object is over soil the weight distributed all around..

A wider track would make no difference than a narrow track, If the mine is closer than its going to explode..

Some one would argue even a 70 T is too much ....

There are many who like to be in attention..

[AustinJ]

Absolutely not, Huge difference...

A Heavy era can be destroyed by a RPG-7V but the same RPG-7V cannot kill a Heay tank but surely a Light tank or any-other Lightly or medium tank.

One can argue conversely as says a heavy ATGM or APFSDS hitting the same spot with Composite only or ERA+ Composite can end up with same result.

New generation engines consume same fuel consumption but output is more..

Still a heavy tank with a more powerful engine will consume more fuel compared to a medium tank with less power engine , all things being equal.

Who ever came with this theroy dont have idea how pressure mine works, A pressure mine can be triggered by a BMP if it is close not even top of it directly..

Pressure mines have certain pressure weight when they explode, When a heavy object is over soil the weight distributed all around..

Even if that were to be the case , Wider Tracks is not one stop solution else US Abrams would have got ground pressure which is more than 1 and got it lower by using winder tracks , there is trade off involved in it

[my name again]

What i told ERA cannot tank a double shot on its surface unlike main Composite Armour..

I doubt that main Composite Armour can take multiple hits on the same spot by modern anti-tank weapons. This is not World War 2 where shells could simply bounce off the armour. Even if there is no penetration , the armour is still damaged.

[Kunal Biswas]

One can argue conversely as says a heavy ATGM or APFSDS hitting the same spot with Composite only or ERA+ Composite can end up with same result.

What kind of argument would be that ? Sound something like not to have tanks coz they can be killed..

I doubt that main Composite Armour can take multiple hits on the same spot by modern anti-tank weapons. This is not World War 2 where shells could simply bounce off the armour. Even if there is no penetration , the armour is still damaged.

The point what i mentioned, it matter what kind of Armour is there to endure such shots, You place a medium or light Armour its not going to last longer but a Heavy Armour does..

Still a heavy tank with a more powerful engine will consume more fuel compared to a medium tank with less power engine , all things being equal.

Nope, FMBT specs are under 50tons and it will powered by 1500hp engine, Arjun is 58-62 tons with 1400hp engine and working fine..

Even if that were to be the case , Wider Tracks is not one stop solution else US Abrams would have got ground pressure which is more than 1 and got it lower by using winder tracks , there is trade off involved in it

What is the ground pressure of M1A2, There is no trade off..

Also what is the ground pressure of T-90S ? compare to Arjun ?

[Kunal Biswas]

Arjun MK2 first Prototype with new panoramic sight at Rajasthan.

Small correction to this the Sight may look a bit different from the above in Final Prototype..

[AustinJ]

What kind of argument would be that ? Sound something like not to have tanks coz they can be killed..

You are making the same argument that ERA is no better in doing in job and then composite armour.

Both will give you the same result if hit at exactly same spot .....the Weapons still has to penetrate the ERA + Armour , infact Composite armour will considerable weaken after the first shot and the second at the same spot will be a definate kill.

The point what i mentioned, it matter what kind of Armour is there to endure such shots, You place a medium or light Armour its not going to last longer but a Heavy Armour does..

Who is denying that , all that i am saying is ERA+Composite armour is no better or worse than the western style all composite armour .....the difference is the latter adds more weight then former.

Nope, FMBT specs are under 50tons and it will powered by 1500hp engine, Arjun is 58-62 tons with 1400hp engine and working fine..

FMBT is evolving nothing is certain as of yet , once it is finalised we will have better idea on final specs.

What is the ground pressure of M1A2, There is no trade off

..

Ground pressure of M1A2/SEP is above 1 similarly other western armour have much higher ground pressure then T-90

Also what is the ground pressure of T-90S ? compare to Arjun ?

Arjun is 0.84 and T-90S is 0.87 .....

[Hyde]

Armour`s weight takes more than 70-80% of total weight of a tank..

Armor = steel = all you see when you look at a tank = if there is twice as much for you to see, what you look at will probably be twice as heavy = weight is determined by the size of the object in question, weight alone does not tell you anything = "They weigh 60 tons while the Russian tanks only weigh 40 tons, they have so much more armor" is ridiculous and wrong once you see them side by side and correctly means "...., they consist of so much more steel", which is just logical as they are by "so much" larger.

If you take 150g of dough and form it into a bread roll or into a large pizza, the thickness of it will vary even though the weight is the same. Also, a bread roll consisting of 100g dough can be thicker than a large pizza made out of 200g of dough.

Again, it's not the weight itself that tells you anything, it tells you nothing except that something is heavier. The question is how far the weight is spread out and what it consists of.

A 11 ton MRAP is well armored, a 11 ton Mercedes Citaro isn't armored against anything.

A Subaru BRZ with 250hp is a quick and fast car, a Chevy Suburban with 250hp is slow and...slow.

Do I have to give you some more examples about relativity, something that children learn when they are probably less than 10 years old?

A Tiger II weighs in at 69.8t, which is basically 70 tons. Yet, I doubt that it is as well protected, or generally even stands a chance, against the half as heavy T-64. Same goes for the 180t "Maus".

I don't understand how people can not understand that and still throw around stupid (they're simply nothing other than that) statements like "a 40-50 ton tank can never offer the same protection as a 70 ton tank".... Oh really? Even if it is half the size and therefore the armor is as thick at each place...? Stupid...

[Kunal Biswas]

You are making the same argument that ERA is no better in doing in job and then composite armour.

Both will give you the same result if hit at exactly same spot .....the Weapons still has to penetrate the ERA + Armour , infact Composite armour will considerable weaken after the first shot and the second at the same spot will be a definate kill.

No, you go through my post, I have repeated it..

No, not at all, A heavy tank without era can take hit, for example from a RPG-7V at front Armour twice it will survive..

But Same RPG-7V hitting a T-72M1 equipped with K5 twice will penetrate it, Given RPG-7V penetration and protection level of T-72..

Bigger Composite module gives higher protection, Same Composite module in lesser Amount wont provide the same level of protection as heavier one..

Who is denying that , all that i am saying is ERA+Composite Armour is no better or worse than the western style all composite Armour .....the difference is the latter adds more weight then former.

But what i said is no matter how good ERA you have it can be destroyed even with RPG-7 or WW2 bazooka, What left behind ERA is pure tank Armour to deal with threads..

Ground pressure of M1A2/SEP is above 1 similarly other western Armour have much higher ground pressure then T-90

I dont understand what is above 1, It sound like Jet engine thrust to weight ratio..

Arjun is 0.84 and T-90S is 0.87 .....

So, Here we have Arjun with lesser ground pressure with wide tracks, No trade offs..


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Armor = steel = all you see when you look at a tank = if there is twice as much for you to see, what you look at will probably be twice as heavy = weight is determined by the size of the object in question, weight alone does not tell you anything = "They weigh 60 tons while the Russian tanks only weigh 40 tons, they have so much more armor"

I think you dont understand the difference here, I am not comparing a Western tank with a Russian tank which is with a auto-loader..
( Even though Western tanks have Composite or at least better RHA protection from side and backs which absence in Russian until recently )

I am comparing merely a Heavy Armour vs a Medium Armour, In a Heavy Armour you have more space for Composite material not in other one, And by no miracle you can suddenly increase its protection just as the other one either..

A more thick Armour have more chance of survival than a lesser one.. ( Without ERA and APS )

A Tiger II weighs in at 69.8t, which is basically 70 tons. Yet, I doubt that it is as well protected, or generally even stands a chance, against the half as heavy T-64. Same goes for the 180t "Maus".

I don't understand how people can not understand that and still throw around stupid (they're simply nothing other than that) statements like "a 40-50 ton tank can never offer the same protection as a 70 ton tank".... Oh really? Even if it is half the size and therefore the armor is as thick at each place...?

Indeed compare a 40s technology of RHA with late 60s tank with composite Armour & Auto Loader

You understand tanks ? If so anything extra like composite Armour does weight not just a fraction but very high..

If i go by your argument a T-72 gives same protection as a M1A2.. ? that is stupid and making no scene..

[AustinJ]

No, you go through my post, I have repeated it..

No, not at all, A heavy tank without era can take hit, for example from a RPG-7V at front Armour twice it will survive..

But Same RPG-7V hitting a T-72M1 equipped with K5 twice will penetrate it, Given RPG-7V penetration and protection level of T-72..

Bigger Composite module gives higher protection, Same Composite module in lesser Amount wont provide the same level of protection as heavier one.

When you compare tanks you have to compare to similar generations.

If you take contemporary generations like T-90 an RPG-7V wont even initiate a response from heavy ERA like K-5 and lets say if it does against say a T-90 with ERA , the RPG-7 wont even scratch on T-90 composite armour.

There are videos of T-72 with ERA receiving multiple hits ( 6-7 ) from RPG-7 and surviving to fight.

With RPG-29 its a different game , T-90 and Abrams will have the same result if it hits the side , infact if side are better protected by wth MS it will survive a single shot

But what i said is no matter how good ERA you have it can be destroyed even with RPG-7 or WW2 bazooka, What left behind ERA is pure tank Armour to deal with threads..

No you cant , ERA dont react to every thing that gets hit and RPG-7 cant do any thing agaisnt modern armour even without ERA

I dont understand what is above 1, It sound like Jet engine thrust to weight ratio..

Well use a little logic , if Arjun has ground pressure of 0.84 then a higher pressure with be 0.9 or more higher will be 1 and above.

So, Here we have Arjun with lesser ground pressure with wide tracks, No trade offs..

No big deal , the ground pressure difference between T-90 and Arjun is marginal and Western tanks have ground pressure more than 0.9 or even 1

ground pressure is useful if you are stuck up in muddy places and with those kind of weigt 50-60 tons it wont make much difference be it 0.84 or 0.9 plus , for bridges etc absolute weight counts not ground pressure

[Kunal Biswas]

When you compare tanks you have to compare to similar generations.

If you take contemporary generations like T-90 an RPG-7V ( 330MM RHA at Stand Off ) wont even initiate a response from heavy ERA like K-5 and lets say if it does against say a T-90 with ERA , the RPG-7 wont even scratch on T-90 composite armour.

With RPG-29 its a different game , T-90 and Abrams will have the same result if it hits the side

ERA dont react to every thing that gets hit and RPG-7 cant do any thing agaisnt modern armour even without ERA

Are you sure ?

I will stop here.

No big deal , the ground pressure difference between T-90 and Arjun is marginal and Western tanks have ground pressure more than 0.9 or even 1

for bridges etc absolute weight counts not ground pressure

Those are not Marginal but also not very huge, But do make difference..

Indeed, But i was not taking about bridges..

[Hyde]

I think you dont understand the difference here, I am not comparing a Western tank with a Russian tank which is with a auto-loader..
( Even though Western tanks have Composite or at least better RHA protection from side and backs which absence in Russian until recently )

I am comparing merely a Heavy Armour vs a Medium Armour, In a Heavy Armour you have more space for Composite material not in other one, And by no miracle you can suddenly increase its protection just as the other one either..

A more thick Armour have more chance of survival than a lesser one.. ( Without ERA and APS )



Indeed compare a 40s technology of RHA with late 60s tank with composite Armour & Auto Loader

You understand tanks ? If so anything extra like composite Armour does weight not just a fraction but very high..

If i go by your argument a T-72 gives same protection as a M1A2.. ? that is stupid and making no scene..

I give up on you, you have no sense for even the simplest logic.

[Kunal Biswas]

During 2011 tests..
------------------------------------
------------------------------------

Some Correction to earlier poster..

[Kunal Biswas]