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Thread: Satellite project to prompt new Israel-Turkey crisis?

  1. #76
    Senior Member cabatli_53's Avatar
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    At the beggining of this thread, While Some of you imply a victory cause of Elbit refusal to sell optics for Gokturk satellites, I emphasized that Elbit is not sole optic provider for satellites in World. It is not important elbit is a World leader or not.




    but You have already been discussing about a proper link to get Who support optic for Gokturk-1, While Telespazio officials along with TAI are telling that The project continues in accordance with schedule Despite Israeli refusal and Gokturk-1 will be launched into space in 2013...

    It said, “Göktürk is on track for a launch window in line with contractual requirements.” Later a Telespazio official told Hürriyet Daily News that the satellite is scheduled to be launched into space in 2013, in line with the contract’s provisions.
    http://www.trdefence.com/2011/03/20/...li-opposition/

    At this phase, It is clear with officials' statements that Israeli optic is not in Gokturk-1 project and so It is out of their bussiness to say something about Gokturk-1. Israel also know this so A delegation from Israel came to Turkey to request Turkish officials not to sell Israel land' high resolution images to third parties especially Iran.

    Israel is currently attempting to negotiate with Turkish officials in order to ensure Turkey does not sell images of Israel to other states and Palestine.

    http://www.virtualjerusalem.com/news.php?Itemid=5198

    That's what Israeli officials took as a response from Turkish officials in those meetings...

    However, the response from Turkish officials was clear: "We will decide how to use the images taken by our satellite."

    http://www.virtualjerusalem.com/news.php?Itemid=5198
    Israel has already done What they are able to do: Refusing to provide Elbit optic for Gokturk-1. After this phase, Israel can not do anything except coming Turkey to request Turkish officials not to sell those images to third countries or making some diplomacy in French/Italy to cancel the project.

    but That's What Italian officials think for future cooperations for Turkey...

    A senior Finmeccanica official earlier said his company also would seek to win a Turkish contract for the next military satellite. “The next satellite program involves a payload comprising a synthetic aperture radar, and the Finmeccanica Group companies will be even more competitive than in the past,” Paolo Pozzessere, Finmeccanica’s commercial director, told the Daily News.

    http://www.trdefence.com/2011/03/20/...li-opposition/
    Last edited by cabatli_53; 11-02-2011 at 07:02 PM.

  2. #77
    Senior Member squidO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TT1 View Post
    According to that article, it's that satellite that Israel worries about.
    May be it is the satellite trdefense worries about, but not Israel. With 2.5 meters resolution you can see Israel on Google Maps.
    We are talking about Göktürk-1.

  3. #78
    Senior Member TT1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squidO View Post
    May be it is the satellite trdefense worries about, but not Israel. With 2.5 meters resolution you can see Israel on Google Maps.
    We are talking about Göktürk-1.
    Yeah I did think so as well, the article confused me a little. The post above yours however have got a good answer to this question.

  4. #79
    Senior Member cabatli_53's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TT1 View Post
    Yeah I did think so as well, the article confused me a little. The post above yours however have got a good answer to this question.
    TT1 bro, You are mixing the project. It is about Goktuk-1 project...

  5. #80
    Senior Member TT1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabatli_53 View Post
    TT1 bro, You are mixing the project. It is about Goktuk-1 project...
    Yeah I thought so as well but the article here

    http://www.trdefence.com/2011/03/20/...li-opposition/

    confused me a little. But you are right bro.

  6. #81
    Senior Member squidO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabatli_53 View Post
    At this phase, It is clear with officials' statements that Israeli optic is not in Gokturk-1 project
    Not clear at all.
    You still post here the same picture that proves nothing. And give links to articles that refer to the same old TodayZaman article.
    I don't claim that Elbit is the only company that is capable to make a camera with required characteristics. I just ask, if it is not Elbit, who is the new manufacturer of the camera.

    BTW, according to Elbit, "Business As usual with Turkey".
    http://www.uasvision.com/2011/10/19/...l-with-turkey/

  7. #82
    Senior Member Camera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TT1 View Post
    I'm glad that we, you and me that is, can agree that it weren't nice of Amichai2 to call them that. However, I would want you to know that I'm not favoring Erdogan or so, so I cannot defend/support his statements about Hamas. I just didn't like Amichai2's approach in this thread. But for your last sentence I've got to say that Erdogan isn't the only one nor the last one who was/are in good relations with Syria or Iran. AFAIK, he stepped away from Syria after the recent events there and Turkey's cooperations with Iran is either economic and/or military (and that's restricted to the PKK-issue), thus not making any harm/threat in what already is a tense region. There are far more threateningly close relations that Iran and Syria got with some countries. I just read news here at MP about a sale of cruise missiles that Russia were to sell to Syria...
    Yes, but contrary to Turkey, countries like China and Russia, have a defense policy independent of the West. Contrary to Turkey, they relay on their own military resources and technologies. But even these countries know the limits and will avoid to sell military grade satellite pictures to organizations considered as terror groups by the West.

    What are those rules? Any examples and/or sources?
    Do you think the Western countries that operate satellites - like Israel, the US or France - will provide or sell military grade pictures to rogue states, terror sponsors or terror organizations who may harm the strategic interests of any Western country?
    No, they won't. On the contrary, they cooperate together in confidence and they won't transfer such pictures to any unreliable country, even if it is not considered as a terror sponsor. These are the rules among the Western players in this field.

    And what is this Turkish business model to sell military grade pictures? Does any country sells military grade pictures to anyone?
    I never heard such thing!

    I don't have links to give you. If you believe I'm wrong about these rules, prove me I'm wrong.

    Everyone is innocent until the opposite is proven
    And I've really hard to believe that Turkey would cooperate with any terrorist organization in that field. Now I'm curious. Any hints what Israel can do or what legal steps it can take?
    Israel could block Turkey from acceding to some technologies Turkey badly needs.
    1/ I'm not sure Turkey will find an alternative camera.
    2/ I don't believe US Congress will approve the transfer of the F-16s source code to Turkey, if Turkey won't offer guarantees it won't transfer HR pictures of Israel's territory to a third party, just as US companies are forbidden from selling/transferring.
    Last edited by Camera; 11-02-2011 at 07:20 PM.

  8. #83
    Senior Member cabatli_53's Avatar
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    BTW, A satellite image taken by Tubitak R&D satellite called "Rasat" which was launched into space from Russia in August 2011.

    French



    China


  9. #84
    Senior Member TT1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camera View Post
    Yes, but contrary to Turkey, countries like China and Russia, have a defense policy independent of the West. Contrary to Turkey, they relay on their own resources and technologies regarding technologies. But even these countries know the limits and will avoid to sell military grade satellite pictures to organizations considered as terror groups by the West.
    Something Turkey hasn't done either. My point was that Turkey is not the only country that have or have had close relations to the countries you mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Camera View Post
    Do you think the Western countries that operate satellites - like Israel, the US or France - will provide or sell military grade pictures to rogue states, terror sponsors or terror organizations who may harm the strategic interests of any Western country?
    No, they don't. On the contrary, they cooperate together in confidence and they won't transfer such pictures to any unreliable country, even if it is not considered a terror sponsor. These are the rules among the Western players in this field.
    Turkey, AFAIK, has as today not stated that it would provide anyone, let alone "dangerous" ones, with any images. If there is a "club" for countries with satellites of this kind which members are in an agreement with each other regarding the sale or transfer of images taken, then Israel (or any other member of that "club") has still not guaranteed Turkey that it won't do anything that would be against Turkey's interests. And you have still failed to prove me that this "rule" exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Camera View Post
    And what is this Turkish business model to sell military grade pictures? Does any country sells military grade pictures to anyone?
    I never heard such thing!
    I don't know what Turkey's business model is like regarding this subject, if they even will allow this kind of business.

    Quote Originally Posted by Camera View Post
    I don't have links to give you. If you believe I'm wrong about these rules, prove me I'm wrong.
    I don't think you are wrong, I just don't believe you if you can't convince me with any reliable sources.

    Quote Originally Posted by Camera View Post
    Israel could block Turkey from acceding to some technologies Turkey badly needs.
    1/ I'm not sure Turkey will find an alternative camera.
    2/ I don't believe US Congress will approve the transfer of the F-16s source code to Turkey, if Turkey won't offer guarantees it won't transfer HR pictures of Israel's territory to Israel's rivals, just as US companies are forbidden from selling/transferring.

    If US companies are forbidden from selling HR pictures of Israel's territory
    Turkey apparently have found another supplier. Your second point is baseless as for now.

  10. #85
    Senior Member Camera's Avatar
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    ^^^
    HR pictures of strategic installations are not for sale.

  11. #86
    Senior Member TT1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camera View Post
    ^^^
    HR pictures of strategic installations are not for sale.
    They may still be a part of a intelligence transfer or cooperation.

  12. #87
    Senior Member cabatli_53's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squidO View Post
    Not clear at all.
    You still post here the same picture that proves nothing. And give links to articles that refer to the same old TodayZaman article.
    I don't claim that Elbit is the only company that capable to make camera with required characteristics. I just ask, if it is not Elbit, who is the new manufacturer of the camera.

    BTW, according to Elbit, "Business As usual with Turkey".
    http://www.uasvision.com/2011/10/19/...l-with-turkey/
    You can't find Whatever you want about projects in net. Sometimes, Officials consciously hide some informations to protect the projects but You can find the answers of your questions in What I have posted above with many sources. If Israel provided the optic for Gokturk-1, Why They need to come Turkey to request Turkish officials not to sell images to third countries ? Because, Israel has already done What they are able to do but can not manage to cancel the project simply. Anyhow, It is a big stupidy to provide a strategic system, While you have some important suspicious about the incomes/outcomes of this foreign project for the benefits of your country. We can not provide a link for every statements of us but can reveal some hints to find correct way. Noone of us has to convince the people about What We have told. The sentences I have typed are clear with many source and The people are free to believe or not but There is one thing for sure with sources that Gokturk-1 project will certainly proceed Whatever Israel does...

    Another hint,

    If you check the 2009-2010 sources about Gokturk-1, You would see the launching year like 2011-12 but At those days, After Israel refused to sell optics or issued their suspicious, TAI-Telespazio Officials updated launching date of Gokturk-1 and Now a days, We see 2013 year as launching date of it. The reason of this delay ? I think It is about Elbit optics that was refused to be sold for Gokturk-1 so The project delayed until Telespazio finds a new provider.

  13. #88
    Senior Member cabatli_53's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camera View Post
    Israel could block Turkey from acceding to some technologies Turkey badly needs.
    1/ I'm not sure Turkey will find an alternative camera.
    2/ I don't believe US Congress will approve the transfer of the F-16s source code to Turkey, if Turkey won't offer guarantees it won't transfer HR pictures of Israel's territory to a third party, just as US companies are forbidden from selling/transferring.
    Link ?
    Joke aside, Ismet Yildiz and a group of defence minister delegation of Turkiye are in USA now a days. 4-5 hours ago, Defence Minister, Ismet Yildiz says that Relations between Turkey-USA has entered a new stage and We have re-discovered eachothers... Please don't want me to provide a link...

  14. #89
    Senior Member squidO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabatli_53 View Post
    Another hint,

    If you check the 2009-2010 sources about Gokturk-1, You would see the launching year like 2011-12 but At those days, After Israel refused to sell optics or issued their suspicious, TAI-Telespazio Officials updated launching date of Gokturk-1 and Now a days, We see 2013 year as launching date of it. The reason of this delay ? I think It is about Elbit optics that was refused to be sold for Gokturk-1 so The project delayed until Telespazio finds a new provider.
    So, following your "hints", the whole story looks like this:

    -Israel demanded Turkey not to sell images of Israel, as a condition to provide the camera (the old Zaman article).
    -Turkey refused.
    -Israel refused to provide the camera.
    -The project was delayed.

    Am I right?

  15. #90
    Senior Member Camera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TT1 View Post
    (…) Turkey, AFAIK, has as today not stated that it would provide anyone, let alone "dangerous" ones, with any images.
    If there is a "club" for countries with satellites of this kind which members are in an agreement with each other regarding the sale or transfer of images taken, then Israel (or any other member of that "club") has still not guaranteed Turkey that it won't do anything that would be against Turkey's interests. And you have still failed to prove me that this "rule" exists.
    Who may be interested in sharing Turkish military grade pictures of Israel? France, US, Germany, Russia, china, Japan… ? No, Arab countries!
    Quote me a single Arab country which is not dangerous and completely reliable!
    If Turkey has no intention to share its pictures with Arab countries, as you say, why it refuses to guarantee it won't do it?

    Your second point is baseless as for now.
    It was just an example. But read carefully the report posted by Cabati about the transfer of the source code of the F-16 and you'll see that in diplomatic language, US administrations asks Turkey, among other things, to normalize its relations with Israel in order to get it: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...=1#post5852903

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