Dutch government approves burqa ban - Or Ordie trolls the Europeans

[RSone]

If I gave the impression that the Netherlands was a fascist state, or that I think that European (in this case Dutch) culture should suffer at the hands of an increasing Islamic presence in order to try and promote multiculturalism, then I'm sorry If I gave that impression, as that was not what I intended to mean, hence the large use of "".

I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect foreign immigrants to learn the language of the country that they are emigrating to and respecting the laws of the land that they have chosen to emigrate to. However, what really grates me is that people seem to instantly think that just because a few extremists are louder than the rest of their group, then that must mean the whole group is like that. Personally, I think this is why this ban was put in place, and why some people are accusing the Dutch of being fascists when they're not.

My comment wasn't aimed at you in specific, more at the type of posts Ordie made some pages back(which did explicitly used the word fascist) so no need to apologize.

[Ought Six]

I do agree that we have a fundamental problem with the integration of islamic immigrants into Dutch, and Western society in general, but I again stress that our ministers and elected representatives must have the right to make these proposals.

As a signatory to various human rights treaties, and being subject to EU discrimination rules, the Netherlands absolutely does not have the right to pass laws creating institutional religious discrimination. That is not 'the American view'. It is your own treaties and EU rules, so let us dispense with the 'Americans telling us what to do' cr@pola here and now. The Council of Europe and its Human Rights Commissioner, the International Human Rights Commission Europe and the EU Human Rights Commissioner have also attacked similar laws as a violation of religious freedom.

The proponents of this law make no bones about the fact that it is aimed squarely at burkha-wearing Muslims. Most of the people arguing for it here say it is designed to 'help' Muslims assimilate, which is also a de facto admission that the law is aimed at Muslims. So the only argument that remains is to make the case that banning the burkha is not religious discrimination against Muslims. I do not see how anyone can make that case.

Hopefully the EU will take action to nullify these laws.

[Ought Six]

Nice dodge at the first half of the post. I'm fairly sure someone wearing a hoodie, sunglasses and baseball cap would fall foul of this proposed law and look pretty conspicuous doing so.

I'm pretty sure the police won't be walking along, confiscating sunglasses on a sunny day. They'll do what most police do with most minor laws and use their discretion

So this guy should be stopped and arrested by police in a free society, just because of what he is wearing?

[Ought Six]

Can police in United States stop your car just for simple routine check even though you did not breach any law?

Caselaw says police need probable cause to stop your car. But driving is probably not a good example, as driving is a privilege, not a right, and thus is subject to greater restrictions.

[Ought Six]

I'm playing devils advocate because I think the reaction from the likes of Ordie/Ought Six is massively OTT. The Netherlands is a first world, democratic, nation, which actually ranks pretty highly when it comes to things like liberty. Accusations of fascism, complaints of religious discrimination and references to the US constitution are banal, irrelevant and idiotic.

I am making the human rights argument on their own laws, treaties and EU rules. Nice try.

[RSone]

As a signatory to various human rights treaties, and being subject to EU discrimination rules, the Netherlands absolutely does not have the right to pass laws creating institutional religious discrimination. That is not 'the American view'. It is your own treaties and EU rules, so let us dispense with the 'Americans telling us what to do' cr@pola here and now. The Council of Europe and its Human Rights Commissioner, the International Human Rights Commission Europe and the EU Human Rights Commissioner have also attacked similar laws as a violation of religious freedom.

The proponents of this law make no bones about the fact that it is aimed squarely at burkha-wearing Muslims. Most of the people arguing for it here say it is designed to 'help' Muslims assimilate, which is also a de facto admission that the law is aimed at Muslims. So the only argument that remains is to make the case that banning the burkha is not religious discrimination against Muslims. I do not see how anyone can make that case.

Hopefully the EU will take action to nullify these laws.

PROPOSAL. None of the legislation it proposes is in force, nor does Dutch law have anything that resembles it currently. If parliament feels it is discriminatory/ not in accordance with EU treaties, it will vote that way. The council of state already warned the cabinet about the proposal to begin with.

So this guy should be stopped and arrested by police in a free society, just because of what he is wearing?

None of these items would be illegal if the proposal makes into law.

[Ought Six]

If I gave the impression that the Netherlands was a fascist state, or that I think that European (in this case Dutch) culture should suffer at the hands of an increasing Islamic presence in order to try and promote multiculturalism, then I'm sorry If I gave that impression, as that was not what I intended to mean, hence the large use of "".

I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect foreign immigrants to learn the language of the country that they are emigrating to and respecting the laws of the land that they have chosen to emigrate to. However, what really grates me is that people seem to instantly think that just because a few extremists are louder than the rest of their group, then that must mean the whole group is like that. Personally, I think this is why this ban was put in place, and why some people are accusing the Dutch of being fascists when they're not.

Saying that this particular law is fascist is not the same as say the entire country or its people are fascist. Some seem unable to make this distinction.

[RSone]

And some seem unable to discuss the matter in a civil matter, resorting to ad hominem tactics.
I'm out. Discussing this matter on here is like massaging my head with a brick.

[Ought Six]

PROPOSAL. None of the legislation it proposes is in force, nor does Dutch law have anything that resembles it currently. If parliament feels it is discriminatory/ not in accordance with EU treaties, it will vote that way. The council of state already warned the cabinet about the proposal to begin with.

Hopefully it will not be voted into law.
----------

None of these items would be illegal if the proposal makes into law.

.... which makes my point rather nicely. If the law were really about people hiding their identity in public and security risks, that sort of dress *would* be banned for that reason. The law is, if fact, aimed at Muslims, and protestations to the contrary are transparently false.

[MrBobUrsaPigger]

Ought Six, I wasn't referring to you in particular, I was referring to Ordie in particular.

And, you do realize that I do not agree with the ban either, as I have already indicated, as I believe that it is not going to help in anyway shape or form in either checking this increasing islamic "menace" and that it will not make a contribution to any attempt to try and solve sectarian tensions between Christian and non-christian Dutch and Islamic immigrants. In my view, that will require something completely different.

[MrBobUrsaPigger]

Hopefully it will not be voted into law.
----------.... which makes my point rather nicely. If the law were really about people hiding their identity in public and security risks, that sort of dress *would* be banned for that reason. The law is, if fact, aimed at Muslims, and protestations to the contrary are transparently false.

This, and the fact that this is will not solve the problem of ethnic and religious tensions between Europeans and Afro-Eurasian Islamic immigrants, are the reasons to my personal opposition to this ban.

[Ought Six]

Ought Six, I wasn't referring to you in particular, I was referring to Ordie in particular.

And, you do realize that I do not agree with the ban either, as I have already indicated, as I believe that it is not going to help in anyway shape or form in either checking this increasing islamic "menace" and that it will not make a contribution to any attempt to try and solve sectarian tensions between Christian and non-christian Dutch and Islamic immigrants. In my view, that will require something completely different.

Agreed.
...

[Steak-Sauce]

And some seem unable to discuss the matter in a civil matter, resorting to ad hominem tactics.
I'm out. Discussing this matter on here is like massaging my head with a brick.

Shut up you God damned Eurowussie! The 'Mericans saved your sorry asses in two World Wars. Reason enough to abolish this discriminatory and un-American burqa ban.

[The Kaiser Chief]

Shut up you God damned Eurowussie! The 'Mericans saved your sorry asses in two World Wars. Reason enough to abolish this discriminatory and un-American burqa ban.

Invading Iraq and Afghanistan, trolling the Eurowussies for banning islamist dresses - you can´t explain that

[Henry's Fork]

Shut up you God damned Eurowussie! The 'Mericans saved your sorry asses in two World Wars. Reason enough to abolish this discriminatory and un-American burqa ban.

RSone is French????

*runs and hides*