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Thread: Dassault RAFALE WINS MMRCA

  1. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by JGXL836 View Post
    Complemented.
    ^^ thanks, so Russia will get something anyway.

  2. #107
    Senior Member Hyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeiJoa View Post
    Its not completely over, according to an article Dassault won only because of extreme price dumping. They were 5 million dollar cheaper per plane.

    If the exclusive talks about money in the next 2 weeks fail, the complete procedure will start again...

    http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unt...812598,00.html

    5 million dollars cheaper per plane is not price dumping, it only means they simply have the cost advantage through more efficient production and development operation, which shouldn't surprise anyone, as they've been successfully making world-class planes for over 6 decades and everything is done in one country, with one company and one air force, and subsequently one set of clear and specific goals and without conflicts.
    Meanwhile the EF is EADS's first attempt at a world-class fighter, and suffers from EADSs usual sickness: overbearing on technical characteristics on paper, which probably add costs in twice the percent that they bring in performance. And the plane still doesn't have the same capabilities that the Rafale already has, and it is unclear when it will have them. (Yeah,yeah..."if India had ordered them, theeen"...on the other hand, Rafale already has them).

    The Rafale was said to be very expensive, and more expensive than the EF, but that was when it only had around 1/4 of the orders, so the development and fixed costs share per plane was much higher. Now that it is spread out on more units, and maybe they factored in possible future sales at the new price, the costs sink and the per unit cost gets lower.

    And the article you linked is completely ridiculous..."Und was ist schon der Kampfjet Rafale?" (And what's the Rafale fighterjet anyway?) ...typical German whining and bashing.

    If just for headlines like these: "Indien kauft lieber Billigflieger" (India rather buys cheap/budget/shoddy/inferior/junk -planes [very pejorative and condescending meaning, Billig-something usually refers to the absolute cheapest trash in price and quality, shoddy Chinese or Eastern European cars for example]) I am glad that the EF didn't win.

    Quote Originally Posted by comet View Post
    Here's hoping this is the momentum shift for the Rafale crew in terms of sales.

    So err I hope i'm not gonna start a war or anything but what is the score card in terms of sales for the 3 Euro fighters?
    I mean, who is leading? Gripen? Rafale? Or Typhoon?
    Up until now, practically no one. All had practically no real or substantial third-party orders, the Gripen did get sold a couple of times so it probably did the best up until now.
    Saab leased 14 Gripens each to Hungary and the Czech Republic and sold some 26 to South Africa and 12 to Thailand. Britain had too many planes and sold a bunch of its used Eurofighters to Saudi Arabia, Germany did the same to Austria, and that's that. No real orders.

    Now: Rafale. And it will probably sell a couple more in the next 5 years.
    Last edited by Hyde; 01-31-2012 at 06:34 PM.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by comet View Post
    Here's hoping this is the momentum shift for the Rafale crew in terms of sales.

    So err I hope i'm not gonna start a war or anything but what is the score card in terms of sales for the 3 Euro fighters?
    I mean, who is leading? Gripen? Rafale? Or Typhoon?
    Well you are starting a war but I'll bite if all goes well for everyone it's (for now):

    474 Typhoons
    412 Rafales
    22 Gripen-NGs (that's not much but you must add 242 Gripens sold and 28 more leased, a good part of which will possibly be upgraded to NG versions)

    If you're counting foreign sales only:

    126 Rafales (1 client India)
    87 Typhoons (2 clients, Saudi Arabia 72, Austria 15, it's to be noted, or not, that those were surplus already ordered by Germany and Britain and sold instead of cancelled).
    22 Gripen-NGs (1 client Switzerland), which you add 38 Gripens bought (2 clients, South Africa 26, Thailand 12) 28 Gripens leased (2 clients Czech Republic 14, Hungary 14) again we can assume a good number of them will be upgraded (or bought instead of the ones leased for example) when the NG are produced.

  4. #109
    Member ASHISH67's Avatar
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    Dailymail Headline

    France swoops to rob UK of 13bn Indian jet contract despite Government promises that aid package would secure deal

    Every time india does something big dailymail brings up uk aid

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by armored_diplomacy View Post
    ^^ thanks, so Russia will get something anyway.
    Generally India has had both Russian and European Jets, it was really no surprise that the European jets won the MMRCA,

    Russia will still sell their Sukhoi to India, the future is bright for Sukhoi once PAK-FA starts production I See India ordering large numbers.

  6. #111
    Senior Member leloup46's Avatar
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    [*******#333333][FONT=arial]A price difference, however, very limited

    [/FONT][/COLOR][*******#333333][FONT=arial]The cost difference seems, in fact, be more tenuous: the unit cost of the Rafale was estimated at 142.3 million euros by the Court of Auditors in 2010. [/FONT][/COLOR][*******#333333][FONT=arial]The unit cost of Typhoon was estimated at 126 million pounds, or 150 million euros by the Public Accounts Committee of the British House of Commons in April 2011. [/FONT][/COLOR][*******#333333][FONT=arial]With lower production costs, Dassault seems to have a little more leeway to offer aggressive pricing as the Eurofighter consortium (46% EADS, BAE Systems' 33%, 21% Alenia). [/FONT][/COLOR][*******#333333][FONT=arial]The elimination of competition in the previous round of F-18 Super Hornet Boeing F-16 Lockheed-Martin, Russian MiG-35 and Saab Gripen has also swept at once candidates that could have cut prices [/FONT][/COLOR][*******#333333][FONT=arial]with programs often already largely depreciated.

    [/FONT][/COLOR][*******#333333][FONT=arial]But more than the price of base, the difference with the Typhoon was probably made on the total cost of the life cycle of the device, including the maintenance in operational condition (MCO), is to [/FONT][/COLOR][*******#333333][FONT=arial]that its maintenance over several decades. [/FONT][/COLOR][*******#333333][FONT=arial]Dassault was deemed very expensive in this area, it just proved that he could offer a competitive price, without which it would have had no luck in India.

    [/FONT][/COLOR][*******#333333][FONT=arial]Delhi wanted especially benefit from a real transfer of technology

    [/FONT][/COLOR][*******#333333][FONT=arial]Another essential criterion for the Indians was the transfer of technology. [/FONT][/COLOR][*******#333333][FONT=arial]"India was extremely demanding on this point, and has raised the stakes," says Richard Aboulafia. [/FONT][/COLOR][*******#333333][FONT=arial]Dassault has probably had to make great efforts on this point to win. [/FONT][/COLOR][*******#333333][FONT=arial]The contract as provided for planning the construction of 108 units in India, only the first 18 being produced in France.

    [/FONT][/COLOR][*******#333333][FONT=arial]In fact, it is obviously more complicated: a large majority of the parts would still be fromFrench suppliers (Thales, Snecma, and 500 SMEs), and the [/FONT][/COLOR][*******#333333][FONT=arial] Indian [/FONT][/COLOR][*******#333333][FONT=arial]value added could sustainably be limited to the final assembly of the device, [/FONT][/COLOR][*******#333333][FONT=arial]a bit like the final assembly line of Airbus A320 in Tianjin (China). [/FONT][/COLOR][*******#333333][FONT=arial]In all cases, the victory of the Rafale in India remains good news for French exports.

    http://www.challenges.fr/entreprise/...rofighter.html[/FONT][/COLOR]

  7. #112
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    Awesome for Rafale sales. I wonder if the Rafale can become the new Mirage (kinda like the JF17 wants to be the new Mig 21) - exporting to all the lower-budget airforces a decent modern platform of the day.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by budgie View Post
    Awesome for Rafale sales. I wonder if the Rafale can become the new Mirage exporting to all the lower-budget airforces a decent modern platform of the day.
    I thought Gripen has that title already

  9. #114
    Senior Member Hyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by budgie View Post
    Awesome for Rafale sales. I wonder if the Rafale can become the new Mirage (kinda like the JF17 wants to be the new Mig 21) - exporting to all the lower-budget airforces a decent modern platform of the day.
    Who said the Rafale is now "lower budget", just because it undercut the overpriced Eurofighter by $5 Mil.?

    @twinblade
    It doesn't. The F-16 has taken that place in the market.

  10. #115

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    i heard the deal is now worth 18-20 BILLION US$!!!

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atzo View Post
    Russia will still sell their Sukhoi to India, the future is bright for Sukhoi once PAK-FA starts production I See India ordering large numbers.
    According to Super-30 upgrade the SU-30mki will use the same weapons as MMRCA..

    That means MICA and SCALP can be seen on MKI too..

  12. #117
    Junior Member Indrajit's Avatar
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    Wow, this is great news!

    Congratulations France!
    I was torn between Rafale and EF, as they were both my fav's from the ones that participated in the MMRCA. Even though I'm glad that the Rafale won, I'm kidna saddened that the EF lost...as they are both fantastic aircraft. Maybe this opens the Door for Germany to win the Submarine tender ?

    Now the question is...what about the other 80 aircraft? Chances are that it will be to Rafale too...as History shows us that the IAF buys aircraft in batches...not to mention the fact that the original MMRCA had a clause which allowed India to order up to(a total of) 200 aircraft for the same price.

  13. #118
    Senior Member Kunal Biswas's Avatar
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    [SIZE=4][FONT=helvetica]The Twists And Turns Of India's Biggest Defence Deal
    [/FONT][/SIZE]

    [*******#282828][FONT=helvetica]This is how India's biggest defence deal - a $10.4-billion tender for 126 combat aircraft - panned out:[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [*******#282828][FONT=helvetica]* 2000: Indian Air Force (IAF) conveys to defence ministry its interest in acquiring medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) to replace its ageing fleet of Soviet-era MiG-21s and because of delays in developing the indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA).[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [*******#282828][FONT=helvetica]* 2001: IAF issues request for information (RFI) for 126 combat jets.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [*******#282828][FONT=helvetica]* 2003: IAF seeks defence ministry's permission to buy 50 more French Mirage-2000s to shore up the only MMRCAs in its fleet as a stop-gap arrangement. The aircraft had been acquired in the mid-1980s.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [*******#282828][FONT=helvetica]* 2004: Defence ministry asks IAF to instead issue a larger MMRCA tender.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [*******#282828][FONT=helvetica]* 2005: Defence ministry issues initial MMRCA tender but withdraws it quickly even as it starts receiving responses from vendors.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [*******#282828][FONT=helvetica]* 2006: The then IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal S.P. Tyagi, flags the dwindling squadron strength of the force. From a sanctioned strength of 39.5 combat squadrons, the IAF is down to 33 squadrons.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [*******#282828][FONT=helvetica]* August 2007: India issues the tender for 126 MMRCAs at an estimated cost of $10.4 billion.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [*******#282828][FONT=helvetica]* February 2008: US majors Boeing and Lockheed Martin, Russia's United Aircraft Corporation, France's Dassault, European consortium EADS and Sweden's SAAB submit their bids.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [*******#282828][FONT=helvetica]* April 2009: Reports that Dassault and SAAB are out of the race.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [*******#282828][FONT=helvetica]* May 2009: Defence ministry says Dassault and SAAB still in contention.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [*******#282828][FONT=helvetica]* April 2010: IAF completes its flight and weapons evaluation of the six contenders on the basis of 643 parameters.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [*******#282828][FONT=helvetica]* December 2010: Offset proposals of contenders goes missing; later found on the roadside in south Delhi. The incident threatens to derail the tendering process.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [*******#282828][FONT=helvetica]* April 2011: India down-selects EADS and Dassault for the final leg of the contest, rejecting the other four contenders.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [*******#282828][FONT=helvetica]* November 2011: The commercial offers from European consortium Eurofighter and France's Dassault Aviation opened.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [*******#282828][FONT=helvetica]January 31, 2011: Dassault informed that it has emerged as the lowest bidder.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    The twists and turns of India's biggest defence deal | The Asian Age

  14. #119
    Senior Member Kunal Biswas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indrajit View Post
    Now the question is...what about the other 80 aircraft?
    The Question is, Is it IAF or IN ?

    I heard that NMMRCA was to be opened right after IAF MMRCA..

  15. #120
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    This is from Indian Express

    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/fr...t-deal/906344/

    ...................................
    While India initially budgeted Rs 42,000 crore for the deal to purchase 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), sources said the deal will now cost Rs 76,000 crore upward, making it the largest international defence deal by value in recent years. India is also likely to increase the order book by adding 60 more aircraft to the deal over the next few years, making the contract bigger.

    ...............................
    Sources said the difference in price was “significant”. The Eurofighter is learnt to have been almost ten percent more expensive that the French fighter. While Dassault has been called for commercial negotiations, sources said the contract would not be signed this financial year. “It could take several months to sign the deal as a lot of paperwork needs to be done. We are hoping to sign the deal in the next financial year,” an official said.

    [RIGHT]... contd.
    [/RIGHT]

    So It seems it will be 126+60 for the Air Force itself.

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