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Thread: New Documentary Exposes Economic, Moral Failure of U.S. War on Drugs

  1. #61
    Senior Member Dominique's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasch View Post
    I did not talk in absolutes.

    Look at alcohol in the US. Sure, there are still some moonshining going on, but most people buy alcohol at the local bar and shops. Why? Prices are low, regulation is low, there is competition between companies for customers which in most cases means their product has higher quality than what some redneck produces in his shed.
    There's a ***** load of moonshining going on (and unlike what most people think, it's not some guy cooking up 50 gallons in his back yard still). And unlike alcohol, the local crack head, meth head, etc. doesn't act the same way as an alcoholic. They'll do anything, and I mean anything to get high.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Dominique's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit View Post
    Most of these people might not be model citizens, but they are still more or less harmless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kit View Post
    Users are not criminals; they're victims out of their own stupidity.
    Bull*****, the people getting locked up for drugs aren't not getting jail and/or prison time for having a nickel bag of weed. They get locked up for having crack, meth, power cocaine, prescription drugs, etc. They also commit other crimes to help pay for the drugs they're using. But I'm sure you know that.

  3. #63
    A raging feminist's trauma haunts me to this day
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSumner View Post
    And unlike alcohol, the local crack head, meth head, etc. doesn't act the same way as an alcoholic. They'll do anything, and I mean anything to get high.
    That's crap - alcohol withdrawal is brutal, and unlike most drugs, can actually lead to death. Alcoholics will do anything, and I mean anything to get drunk. They will drink anything - underage alcoholics often consume mouthwash, for example. That's why a friend of mine's AA nickname was "scope". It's ugly.

    But they don't usually have to 'anything', because you can get a 5th of cheap booze for a few bucks.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Dominique's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eskachig View Post
    That's crap - alcohol withdrawal is brutal, and unlike most drugs, can actually lead to death. Alcoholics will do anything, and I mean anything to get drunk. They will drink anything - underage alcoholics often consume mouthwash, for example. That's why a friend of mine's AA nickname was "scope". It's ugly.

    But they don't usually have to 'anything', because you can get a 5th of cheap booze for a few bucks.
    I didn't say anything about alcohol withdrawal, now did I? While an a hard core alcoholic will drink anything he can to get high, I'd take them any day of the week over a crack head or meth head. As I've said repeatedly, I'd love for some of you to do some volunteer work at a police office, sheriff's office/department, etc. and see exactly what we're dealing with.

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    Wyatt Earp Trigger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eskachig View Post
    That's crap - alcohol withdrawal is brutal, and unlike most drugs, can actually lead to death. Alcoholics will do anything, and I mean anything to get drunk. They will drink anything - underage alcoholics often consume mouthwash, for example. That's why a friend of mine's AA nickname was "scope". It's ugly.

    But they don't usually have to 'anything', because you can get a 5th of cheap booze for a few bucks.
    So legalizing Heroin, Meth or Cocaine is going to somehow make all the property crimes disappear? How are they going to pay for all that stuff? Are you suggesting that a drug user doesn't abuse alcohol as well, just because one is legal?

    Comparing Alcoholism to hard drug addiction is ridiculous.
    How much is legal alcoholism costing the country? You want to legalize drugs too. Sure. Shoot yourself in one leg, you can still get around. What the hell, shoot the other one too.

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    Wyatt Earp Trigger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSumner View Post
    I didn't say anything about alcohol withdrawal, now did I? While an a hard core alcoholic will drink anything he can to get high, I'd take them any day of the week over a crack head or meth head. As I've said repeatedly, I'd love for some of you to do some volunteer work at a police office, sheriff's office/department, etc. and see exactly what we're dealing with.
    Oh no D! Immersing them in the real world would take away from their study of statistics. You know, stuff that matters.

  7. #67
    No Good Bloody Seppo California Joe's Avatar
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    I always drink when I do coke.


    What?

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    Senior Member DaveDash's Avatar
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    The underlining fact of the matter is that people want to do drugs and will do them whether they are legal or illegal. So are you going to let the criminals control the flow of money or the government? I don't know of too many cartels or crime organizations that reinvest in prevention and rehab programs, myself.

    Should meth and such be freely available at your local 24/7? Absolutely not. But there are ways of controlling substances through proper healthcare channels that are proven effective in other countries around the world today.

    But like always, America, and Americans will bury their head in the sand and throw insane amounts of money at problems in the most inefficient manner, behind the curve yet again.

    In before the: "We dun give ar ***** how othur countries do it, We're AMerkica! ***** yeah!" It's ok guys. You keep on staying in the first half of the 20th century when your country was great. Don't forget to write us!
    Last edited by DaveDash; 02-01-2012 at 06:21 PM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSumner View Post
    I didn't say anything about alcohol withdrawal, now did I? While an a hard core alcoholic will drink anything he can to get high, I'd take them any day of the week over a crack head or meth head. As I've said repeatedly, I'd love for some of you to do some volunteer work at a police office, sheriff's office/department, etc. and see exactly what we're dealing with.
    The withdrawal is why hard core drug addicts will do anything for a fix, the phenomena are directly related. Btw, you do realize that in a sheriff's station you're dealing with a small subsection of drug addicts/drunks, right? Most users never get to that point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger View Post
    So legalizing Heroin, Meth or Cocaine is going to somehow make all the property crimes disappear? How are they going to pay for all that stuff?
    Legalizing them brings down the prices radically, which does have a pretty massive effect on property crimes. From the link I posted earlier:

    [*******#000000][FONT=Palatino Linotype]Cocaine was the driving force behind the majority of drug-related violence throughout the 1980s and into the early 1990s. It was the main target of the federal War on Drugs and was the highest profit drug trade overall. In 1988, the American cocaine market was valued at almost $140 billion dollars, over 2 percent of U.S. GDP. The violence that surrounded its distribution and sale pushed the murder rate to its highest point in America's history (between 8-10 per 100,000 residents from 1981-1991), turned economically impoverished cities like Baltimore, Detroit, Trenton and Gary, Indiana, into international murder capitals, and made America the most violent industrialized nation in the world.
    [/FONT][/COLOR][*******#000000][FONT=Palatino Linotype]
    Then in 1994, the crime rate dropped off a cliff. The number of homicides would plummet drastically, dropping almost 50 percent in less than ten years. The same would go for every garden variety of violent crime on down to petty theft. The same year as the sharp decline in crime, cocaine prices hit an all-time low.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    When drugs are cheap and easily available, there is less reason to commit crimes. When holding down a minimum wage job is enough to provide a fix at the end of the day, that job will be an easier path than the stuff addicts have to do now. A heroin habit is just too expensive for most people to be able to afford with their wages, unless you're a celebrity.

    Comparing Alcoholism to hard drug addiction is ridiculous.
    It's absolutely not ridiculous - alcoholics and other drug addicts in treatment don't really see much of a difference. The only real differences are the ones that come from the legal status of various substances. Alcoholics have to deal with special challenges because their choice of drug is available everywhere and is intertwined in our culture. Illegal drug addicts have to deal with challenges related to price and distribution system of their chosen drugs. In other respects, addicts are addicts.

    How much is legal alcoholism costing the country? You want to legalize drugs too. Sure. Shoot yourself in one leg, you can still get around. What the hell, shoot the other one too.
    I suspect that legal alcoholism costs us a lot less than attempting to enforce our illegal drug statutes - as well as loss of tax income from the nation's biggest cash crop, for example. You're also assuming that legalization/decriminalization results in more users - which is not something that's been shown to be true.

  10. #70
    A raging feminist's trauma haunts me to this day
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger View Post
    Immersing them in the real world would take away from their study of statistics. You know, stuff that matters.
    I'm an engineer. Yes, statistics matter. A lot. When it comes to science, engineering, public policy, etc - statistics are incredibly important. Anecdotal evidence on the other hand...

    Take a deep breath and repeat after me: "Math is my friend. I will not fear math, for fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. Through Poisson distribution I will be free."

  11. #71
    Wyatt Earp Trigger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eskachig View Post
    I'm an engineer. Yes, statistics matter. A lot. When it comes to science, engineering, public policy, etc - statistics are incredibly important. Anecdotal evidence on the other hand...

    Take a deep breath and repeat after me: "Math is my friend. I will not fear math, for fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. Through Poisson distribution I will be free."
    There is nothing anecdotal about the victims I respond to.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger View Post
    There is nothing anecdotal about the victims I respond to.
    Anecdotal doesn't mean you're making it up, in case that's how you're interpreting what I said.

    Btw, in case you didn't know Poisson formulated the distribution that bears his name for law-enforcement purposes, you might find it interesting and applicable to your field.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by eskachig View Post
    Anecdotal doesn't mean you're making it up, in case that's how you're interpreting what I said.
    I took it to mean 'amusing'.

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    Senior Member gresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger View Post
    So legalizing Heroin, Meth or Cocaine is going to somehow make all the property crimes disappear? How are they going to pay for all that stuff? Are you suggesting that a drug user doesn't abuse alcohol as well, just because one is legal?

    Comparing Alcoholism to hard drug addiction is ridiculous.
    How much is legal alcoholism costing the country? You want to legalize drugs too. Sure. Shoot yourself in one leg, you can still get around. What the hell, shoot the other one too.
    Trigger, while I agree with you that pretty much none of the currently illegal narcotics should be legalized, you are wrong on one point. Alcoholism and drug addiction are one in the same. Addiction is addiction, it's a disease. One may be legal and the other not, and they may have different side effects and withdrawal symptoms but it's all one in the same. Both alcohol and drugs like meth, crack, heroin etc do the exact same thing to the brain, trigger the same pleasure receptors etc. I speak from personal experience-having friends and family addicted to stuff like that. It's all the same hell, my friend. Mr. Doctor with a drinking problem and Harry the Hobo with a heroin problem are equally deep in *****.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger View Post
    I took it to mean 'amusing'.
    Absolutely not, it's an established statistical term that has nothing to do with jokes.

    [*******#000000][FONT=sans-serif]The expression anecdotal evidence refers to evidence from anecdotes. Because of the small sample, there is a larger chance that it may be true but unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise unrepresentative of typical cases.[1][2][/FONT][/COLOR]
    [*******#000000][FONT=sans-serif]It is considered evidence, although often dubious if accepted often because it is the only evidence we have. However it may itself be true and verifiable.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [*******#000000][FONT=sans-serif]The term is often used in contrast to scientific evidence, such as evidence-based medicine, which are types of formal accounts. Some anecdotal evidence does not qualify as scientific evidence because its nature prevents it from being investigated using the scientific method. Misuse of anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy and is sometimes informally referred to as the "person who" fallacy ("I know a person who..."; "I know of a case where..." etc. Compare with hasty generalization). Anecdotal evidence is not necessarily representative of a "typical" experience; statistical evidence can more accurately determine how typical something is.
    [/FONT][/COLOR]

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