Page 5 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 101

Thread: New Documentary Exposes Economic, Moral Failure of U.S. War on Drugs

  1. #61
    No Good Bloody Seppo California Joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Watching
    Age
    51
    Posts
    40,756

    Default

    I always drink when I do coke.


    What?

  2. #62
    A raging feminist's trauma haunts me to this day
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Age
    32
    Posts
    5,263

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DSumner View Post
    I didn't say anything about alcohol withdrawal, now did I? While an a hard core alcoholic will drink anything he can to get high, I'd take them any day of the week over a crack head or meth head. As I've said repeatedly, I'd love for some of you to do some volunteer work at a police office, sheriff's office/department, etc. and see exactly what we're dealing with.
    The withdrawal is why hard core drug addicts will do anything for a fix, the phenomena are directly related. Btw, you do realize that in a sheriff's station you're dealing with a small subsection of drug addicts/drunks, right? Most users never get to that point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger View Post
    So legalizing Heroin, Meth or Cocaine is going to somehow make all the property crimes disappear? How are they going to pay for all that stuff?
    Legalizing them brings down the prices radically, which does have a pretty massive effect on property crimes. From the link I posted earlier:

    [*******#000000][FONT=Palatino Linotype]Cocaine was the driving force behind the majority of drug-related violence throughout the 1980s and into the early 1990s. It was the main target of the federal War on Drugs and was the highest profit drug trade overall. In 1988, the American cocaine market was valued at almost $140 billion dollars, over 2 percent of U.S. GDP. The violence that surrounded its distribution and sale pushed the murder rate to its highest point in America's history (between 8-10 per 100,000 residents from 1981-1991), turned economically impoverished cities like Baltimore, Detroit, Trenton and Gary, Indiana, into international murder capitals, and made America the most violent industrialized nation in the world.
    [/FONT][/COLOR][*******#000000][FONT=Palatino Linotype]
    Then in 1994, the crime rate dropped off a cliff. The number of homicides would plummet drastically, dropping almost 50 percent in less than ten years. The same would go for every garden variety of violent crime on down to petty theft. The same year as the sharp decline in crime, cocaine prices hit an all-time low.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    When drugs are cheap and easily available, there is less reason to commit crimes. When holding down a minimum wage job is enough to provide a fix at the end of the day, that job will be an easier path than the stuff addicts have to do now. A heroin habit is just too expensive for most people to be able to afford with their wages, unless you're a celebrity.

    Comparing Alcoholism to hard drug addiction is ridiculous.
    It's absolutely not ridiculous - alcoholics and other drug addicts in treatment don't really see much of a difference. The only real differences are the ones that come from the legal status of various substances. Alcoholics have to deal with special challenges because their choice of drug is available everywhere and is intertwined in our culture. Illegal drug addicts have to deal with challenges related to price and distribution system of their chosen drugs. In other respects, addicts are addicts.

    How much is legal alcoholism costing the country? You want to legalize drugs too. Sure. Shoot yourself in one leg, you can still get around. What the hell, shoot the other one too.
    I suspect that legal alcoholism costs us a lot less than attempting to enforce our illegal drug statutes - as well as loss of tax income from the nation's biggest cash crop, for example. You're also assuming that legalization/decriminalization results in more users - which is not something that's been shown to be true.

  3. #63
    A raging feminist's trauma haunts me to this day
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Age
    32
    Posts
    5,263

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger View Post
    Immersing them in the real world would take away from their study of statistics. You know, stuff that matters.
    I'm an engineer. Yes, statistics matter. A lot. When it comes to science, engineering, public policy, etc - statistics are incredibly important. Anecdotal evidence on the other hand...

    Take a deep breath and repeat after me: "Math is my friend. I will not fear math, for fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. Through Poisson distribution I will be free."

  4. #64
    Wyatt Earp Trigger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    here and there
    Age
    45
    Posts
    5,937

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eskachig View Post
    I'm an engineer. Yes, statistics matter. A lot. When it comes to science, engineering, public policy, etc - statistics are incredibly important. Anecdotal evidence on the other hand...

    Take a deep breath and repeat after me: "Math is my friend. I will not fear math, for fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. Through Poisson distribution I will be free."
    There is nothing anecdotal about the victims I respond to.

  5. #65
    A raging feminist's trauma haunts me to this day
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Age
    32
    Posts
    5,263

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger View Post
    There is nothing anecdotal about the victims I respond to.
    Anecdotal doesn't mean you're making it up, in case that's how you're interpreting what I said.

    Btw, in case you didn't know Poisson formulated the distribution that bears his name for law-enforcement purposes, you might find it interesting and applicable to your field.

  6. #66
    Wyatt Earp Trigger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    here and there
    Age
    45
    Posts
    5,937

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eskachig View Post
    Anecdotal doesn't mean you're making it up, in case that's how you're interpreting what I said.
    I took it to mean 'amusing'.

  7. #67
    Senior Member gresh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Age
    24
    Posts
    6,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger View Post
    So legalizing Heroin, Meth or Cocaine is going to somehow make all the property crimes disappear? How are they going to pay for all that stuff? Are you suggesting that a drug user doesn't abuse alcohol as well, just because one is legal?

    Comparing Alcoholism to hard drug addiction is ridiculous.
    How much is legal alcoholism costing the country? You want to legalize drugs too. Sure. Shoot yourself in one leg, you can still get around. What the hell, shoot the other one too.
    Trigger, while I agree with you that pretty much none of the currently illegal narcotics should be legalized, you are wrong on one point. Alcoholism and drug addiction are one in the same. Addiction is addiction, it's a disease. One may be legal and the other not, and they may have different side effects and withdrawal symptoms but it's all one in the same. Both alcohol and drugs like meth, crack, heroin etc do the exact same thing to the brain, trigger the same pleasure receptors etc. I speak from personal experience-having friends and family addicted to stuff like that. It's all the same hell, my friend. Mr. Doctor with a drinking problem and Harry the Hobo with a heroin problem are equally deep in *****.

  8. #68
    A raging feminist's trauma haunts me to this day
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Age
    32
    Posts
    5,263

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger View Post
    I took it to mean 'amusing'.
    Absolutely not, it's an established statistical term that has nothing to do with jokes.

    [*******#000000][FONT=sans-serif]The expression anecdotal evidence refers to evidence from anecdotes. Because of the small sample, there is a larger chance that it may be true but unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise unrepresentative of typical cases.[1][2][/FONT][/COLOR]
    [*******#000000][FONT=sans-serif]It is considered evidence, although often dubious if accepted often because it is the only evidence we have. However it may itself be true and verifiable.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [*******#000000][FONT=sans-serif]The term is often used in contrast to scientific evidence, such as evidence-based medicine, which are types of formal accounts. Some anecdotal evidence does not qualify as scientific evidence because its nature prevents it from being investigated using the scientific method. Misuse of anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy and is sometimes informally referred to as the "person who" fallacy ("I know a person who..."; "I know of a case where..." etc. Compare with hasty generalization). Anecdotal evidence is not necessarily representative of a "typical" experience; statistical evidence can more accurately determine how typical something is.
    [/FONT][/COLOR]

  9. #69
    Wyatt Earp Trigger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    here and there
    Age
    45
    Posts
    5,937

    Default

    @ gresh:
    Yes addictions are bad, but the time they take to develop varies. How many drinks before you're an alcoholic. How many hits of Meth, Crack, Heroin? And these are all self inflicted 'diseases' unless you're born to an addict.

  10. #70
    Senior Member gresh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Age
    24
    Posts
    6,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger View Post
    @ gresh:
    Yes addictions are bad, but the time they take to develop varies. How many drinks before you're an alcoholic. How many hits of Meth, Crack, Heroin? And these are all self inflicted 'diseases' unless you're born to an addict.
    That is true, different substances are more addictive than others. On the other hand, some of it has to do with genetic predisposition. That's not to say that because your dad is a drunk, you will be. But I do know many folks who's parents are big time drunks, and they turned out the exact same way. You're a lot more likely to go down that road if you have a relative with a history. A doctor I know described it to me this way= It's 50/50 pretty much. Half predisposition, half choice. If you're predisposed to it, it's like an allergy to a medication. Some people can try crack, even do it on the weekends and be fine. The people that are predisposed will try it once , and be hooked hardcore. It really just depends on circumstances.

    But yes, it's definitely self-inflicted. Then again, so is diabetes in a lot of cases.

  11. #71
    Waywickedcool Federal Ninja Laconian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Villa Gorilla
    Age
    52
    Posts
    14,808

    Default

    I've spent too much time around POS dopers, be they dealers or users. The dealers are the some of the lowest scum on earth and the users, whether they are on meth, crack, powder coke, heroin, pills, huffers, whatever all started on weed.

    We can't get a handle on prescription drug abuse in this country: pill mills, doctors prescribing on a wink and a promise, hijacking, pharma burglaries, the black market, etc.

    So the solution is to legalize drugs and tax them. Anyone wanting the government smaller just made it bigger, DEA is not going away, FDA not going away, in fact to put up with the new tax laws and black & gray markets that will spring up, several agencies will make the argument they need to get bigger. Department of Agriculture will need to get bigger to monitor all the weed farms, HHS bigger to deal with the education and government treatment of addicts, etc.

    Let's just stop calling it a war on drugs, which it never was. It was enhanced enforcement, aimed at a problem.

  12. #72

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Laconian View Post
    I've spent too much time around POS dopers, be they dealers or users. The dealers are the some of the lowest scum on earth and the users, whether they are on meth, crack, powder coke, heroin, pills, huffers, whatever all started on weed.

    We can't get a handle on prescription drug abuse in this country: pill mills, doctors prescribing on a wink and a promise, hijacking, pharma burglaries, the black market, etc.

    So the solution is to legalize drugs and tax them. Anyone wanting the government smaller just made it bigger, DEA is not going away, FDA not going away, in fact to put up with the new tax laws and black & gray markets that will spring up, several agencies will make the argument they need to get bigger. Department of Agriculture will need to get bigger to monitor all the weed farms, HHS bigger to deal with the education and government treatment of addicts, etc.

    Let's just stop calling it a war on drugs, which it never was. It was enhanced enforcement, aimed at a problem.
    so do you need DEA to watch breweries and distillers?

    and all started on weed? you mean all started on alcohol and tobbaco because they were the first drugs they probably tried, weed only leads to harder drugs because its ILLEGAL

    when you make anything illegal be it alcohol,tobbaco, heroin or cannabis creates a black market for the drug

    make junkies get their smack from government run clinics that way criminal gangs run out of business and current junkies wont have to robe houses and kill people to get their dope, use the money you save to educate your citizens about the dangers of drugs and help addicts rid themselves of addiction

    things like cannabis and other soft drugs should be legalised and taxed just like alcohol and tobbaco

    currently in USA over a million people a year get jailed for drug related crimes

    and many prescription drugs are just as addictive as heroin because they use other substitutes from the poppy plant and government seems to control them much better than the law enforcement on the streets

    they way things run atm is police jail a drug dealer today and tomorrow a different dealer will fill his/her shoes its a never ending cycle

    ending the war on drugs can stimulate many major economies around the globe and help get us out of the current recession

  13. #73

    Default

    double post

  14. #74
    Waywickedcool Federal Ninja Laconian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Villa Gorilla
    Age
    52
    Posts
    14,808

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by poolboy View Post
    when you make anything illegal be it alcohol,tobbaco, heroin or cannabis creates a black market for the drug

    make junkies get their smack from government run clinics that way criminal gangs run out of business and current junkies wont have to robe houses and kill people to get their dope, use the money you save to educate your citizens about the dangers of drugs and help addicts rid themselves of addiction



    things like cannabis and other soft drugs should be legalised and taxed just like alcohol and tobbaco

    currently in USA over a million people a year get jailed for drug related crimes

    and many prescription drugs are just as addictive as heroin because they use other substitutes from the poppy plant and government seems to control them much better

    they way things run atm is police jail a drug dealer today and tomorrow a different dealer will fill his/her shoes its a never ending cycle


    ending the war on drugs can stimulate many major economies around the globe and help get us out of the current recession
    GREAT, have the government get in the drug production and supply business, that won't cost taxpayers a penny and will be a great plan because it runs all the other businesses it runs so well. Unless they are going to give the dope away, users will need to have money to buy even cheap dope, so they will continue to commit a variety of crimes to get money to score dope.

    1,000,000 jailed for drug related crime like burglary, robbery, agg assault, agg battery, fraud, home invasion robberies, etc? Or drug related crime like trafficking to PWIT or PWID? Because even simple possession of heroin doesn't get you jail time.

    The government is NOT doing a good job of controlling prescription drug use or abuse. The problem has been rising over the last several years and in many jurisdictions it is surpassing illegal drugs as the drug of choice on the street.

    Burglars, robbers murderers and s3xual predators are arrested, tried, convicted and sentenced everyday too and someone is always taking their place too.

  15. #75
    Senior Member DaveDash's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    5,432

    Default

    The fact that law enforcement is constantly dealing with drug abuse 40-50 years on, despite the penalties, kinda tells me that law enforcement is not working. When there is demand there will be supply, and law enforcement seems ill-equipped at dealing with demand.

    Prevention and education are far more effective in my mind. Look at what happened to smoking. Should all drugs be legalised? No. And just because alcohol is doesn't mean drugs should be either. But there needs to be a serious look at how the problem is approached, and in America too many people have been brainwashed from years of anti drug campaigns for any real objective solutions to take place.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •