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Thread: New Documentary Exposes Economic, Moral Failure of U.S. War on Drugs

  1. #61
    Senior Member gresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger View Post
    So legalizing Heroin, Meth or Cocaine is going to somehow make all the property crimes disappear? How are they going to pay for all that stuff? Are you suggesting that a drug user doesn't abuse alcohol as well, just because one is legal?

    Comparing Alcoholism to hard drug addiction is ridiculous.
    How much is legal alcoholism costing the country? You want to legalize drugs too. Sure. Shoot yourself in one leg, you can still get around. What the hell, shoot the other one too.
    Trigger, while I agree with you that pretty much none of the currently illegal narcotics should be legalized, you are wrong on one point. Alcoholism and drug addiction are one in the same. Addiction is addiction, it's a disease. One may be legal and the other not, and they may have different side effects and withdrawal symptoms but it's all one in the same. Both alcohol and drugs like meth, crack, heroin etc do the exact same thing to the brain, trigger the same pleasure receptors etc. I speak from personal experience-having friends and family addicted to stuff like that. It's all the same hell, my friend. Mr. Doctor with a drinking problem and Harry the Hobo with a heroin problem are equally deep in *****.

  2. #62
    A raging feminist's trauma haunts me to this day
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger View Post
    I took it to mean 'amusing'.
    Absolutely not, it's an established statistical term that has nothing to do with jokes.

    [*******#000000][FONT=sans-serif]The expression anecdotal evidence refers to evidence from anecdotes. Because of the small sample, there is a larger chance that it may be true but unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise unrepresentative of typical cases.[1][2][/FONT][/COLOR]
    [*******#000000][FONT=sans-serif]It is considered evidence, although often dubious if accepted often because it is the only evidence we have. However it may itself be true and verifiable.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [*******#000000][FONT=sans-serif]The term is often used in contrast to scientific evidence, such as evidence-based medicine, which are types of formal accounts. Some anecdotal evidence does not qualify as scientific evidence because its nature prevents it from being investigated using the scientific method. Misuse of anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy and is sometimes informally referred to as the "person who" fallacy ("I know a person who..."; "I know of a case where..." etc. Compare with hasty generalization). Anecdotal evidence is not necessarily representative of a "typical" experience; statistical evidence can more accurately determine how typical something is.
    [/FONT][/COLOR]

  3. #63
    Wyatt Earp Trigger's Avatar
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    @ gresh:
    Yes addictions are bad, but the time they take to develop varies. How many drinks before you're an alcoholic. How many hits of Meth, Crack, Heroin? And these are all self inflicted 'diseases' unless you're born to an addict.

  4. #64
    Senior Member gresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger View Post
    @ gresh:
    Yes addictions are bad, but the time they take to develop varies. How many drinks before you're an alcoholic. How many hits of Meth, Crack, Heroin? And these are all self inflicted 'diseases' unless you're born to an addict.
    That is true, different substances are more addictive than others. On the other hand, some of it has to do with genetic predisposition. That's not to say that because your dad is a drunk, you will be. But I do know many folks who's parents are big time drunks, and they turned out the exact same way. You're a lot more likely to go down that road if you have a relative with a history. A doctor I know described it to me this way= It's 50/50 pretty much. Half predisposition, half choice. If you're predisposed to it, it's like an allergy to a medication. Some people can try crack, even do it on the weekends and be fine. The people that are predisposed will try it once , and be hooked hardcore. It really just depends on circumstances.

    But yes, it's definitely self-inflicted. Then again, so is diabetes in a lot of cases.

  5. #65
    Waywickedcool Federal Ninja Laconian's Avatar
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    I've spent too much time around POS dopers, be they dealers or users. The dealers are the some of the lowest scum on earth and the users, whether they are on meth, crack, powder coke, heroin, pills, huffers, whatever all started on weed.

    We can't get a handle on prescription drug abuse in this country: pill mills, doctors prescribing on a wink and a promise, hijacking, pharma burglaries, the black market, etc.

    So the solution is to legalize drugs and tax them. Anyone wanting the government smaller just made it bigger, DEA is not going away, FDA not going away, in fact to put up with the new tax laws and black & gray markets that will spring up, several agencies will make the argument they need to get bigger. Department of Agriculture will need to get bigger to monitor all the weed farms, HHS bigger to deal with the education and government treatment of addicts, etc.

    Let's just stop calling it a war on drugs, which it never was. It was enhanced enforcement, aimed at a problem.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laconian View Post
    I've spent too much time around POS dopers, be they dealers or users. The dealers are the some of the lowest scum on earth and the users, whether they are on meth, crack, powder coke, heroin, pills, huffers, whatever all started on weed.

    We can't get a handle on prescription drug abuse in this country: pill mills, doctors prescribing on a wink and a promise, hijacking, pharma burglaries, the black market, etc.

    So the solution is to legalize drugs and tax them. Anyone wanting the government smaller just made it bigger, DEA is not going away, FDA not going away, in fact to put up with the new tax laws and black & gray markets that will spring up, several agencies will make the argument they need to get bigger. Department of Agriculture will need to get bigger to monitor all the weed farms, HHS bigger to deal with the education and government treatment of addicts, etc.

    Let's just stop calling it a war on drugs, which it never was. It was enhanced enforcement, aimed at a problem.
    so do you need DEA to watch breweries and distillers?

    and all started on weed? you mean all started on alcohol and tobbaco because they were the first drugs they probably tried, weed only leads to harder drugs because its ILLEGAL

    when you make anything illegal be it alcohol,tobbaco, heroin or cannabis creates a black market for the drug

    make junkies get their smack from government run clinics that way criminal gangs run out of business and current junkies wont have to robe houses and kill people to get their dope, use the money you save to educate your citizens about the dangers of drugs and help addicts rid themselves of addiction

    things like cannabis and other soft drugs should be legalised and taxed just like alcohol and tobbaco

    currently in USA over a million people a year get jailed for drug related crimes

    and many prescription drugs are just as addictive as heroin because they use other substitutes from the poppy plant and government seems to control them much better than the law enforcement on the streets

    they way things run atm is police jail a drug dealer today and tomorrow a different dealer will fill his/her shoes its a never ending cycle

    ending the war on drugs can stimulate many major economies around the globe and help get us out of the current recession

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    double post

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    Senior Member DaveDash's Avatar
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    The fact that law enforcement is constantly dealing with drug abuse 40-50 years on, despite the penalties, kinda tells me that law enforcement is not working. When there is demand there will be supply, and law enforcement seems ill-equipped at dealing with demand.

    Prevention and education are far more effective in my mind. Look at what happened to smoking. Should all drugs be legalised? No. And just because alcohol is doesn't mean drugs should be either. But there needs to be a serious look at how the problem is approached, and in America too many people have been brainwashed from years of anti drug campaigns for any real objective solutions to take place.

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    Senior Member DaveDash's Avatar
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    The other thing is, some of our Law enforcement friends here may forget, is that every day they bump into a drug user. At the bank, maybe looking after their kids, maybe fixing their computer, most likely on this forum. Not every drug user is a deranged meth addict or crack addict. There are, I would hazard, a large portion of drug users who smoke cannabis, take LSD, extacy, and such who are not robbing stores, causing violent crime, and such.

    Yet their money is being taken out of the economic flow and put directly into the pockets of criminals - who DO peddle the more harmful substances, with no sign of letting up.

    This strikes me as a rather absurd folly.

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    Senior Member Dominique's Avatar
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    Just out of curiosity, for those of you claiming that it's the price of drugs that make people turn to crime, how many of you actually know what a tab of heroin costs, or a tablet of Oxy, or what crack cocaine is going for on the street? And for everyone crying it's cheaper to send them to rehab, while that may be true, the simple fact is they will not go, even when it's court ordered, or it's a mandatory part of their jail or prison sentence, they refuse to participate.

    I'm serious when I tell you really need to work for a Fire/EMS service, hospital emergency room, PD/Sheriff, prison, etc. to see what we get to deal with.

  11. #71
    Senior Member DaveDash's Avatar
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    I have friends who work in ER (most of them party and have taken drugs, ironically) and while drugs are a burden, it's mostly alcohol fuelled incidents that overload the system (and also people who think they're sick, a war on anxiety next anyone?).

    What you're not getting is that people are doing drugs whether they're illegal or not. Many of them "reasonably" harmless (compared to meth/crack at least), and all the while money is going to criminals.

    Drug enforcement as a law enforcement problem has failed. Bury your head in the sand and deny that fact as much as you like, but that won't change the problem.

    Other nations around the world are beginning to open their minds, and explore other solutions. But the average poster here it seems from the US tends to have very little understanding of real drug culture (LE or not LE) as a whole.

    There seems to be this thick-skulled argument that all drug users are meth head criminals, whereas the reality is remarkably different. As someone who works in LE, you need to understand that you're mostly dealing with the scum and the hopeless. But there is a HUGE portion of society out there taking drugs on a regular basis who you don't come in contact with. Your experiences are ancedotial. And while you may be effecting supply, you are doing very little to curb demand.
    Last edited by DaveDash; 02-01-2012 at 11:04 PM.

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    Senior Member Dominique's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveDash View Post
    I have friends who work in ER (most of them party and have taken drugs, ironically) and while drugs are a burden, it's mostly alcohol fuelled incidents that overload the system (and also people who think they're sick, a war on anxiety next anyone?).

    What you're not getting is that people are doing drugs whether they're iillegal or not. Many of them "reasonably" harmless (compared to meth/crack at least), and all the while money is going to criminals.

    Drug enforcement as a law enforcement problem has failed. Bury your head in the sand and deny that fact as much as you like, but that won't change the problem.

    Other nations around the world are beginning to open their minds, and explore other solutions. But the average poster here it seems from the US tends to have very little understanding of real drug culture (LE or not LE) as a whole.

    There seems to be this thick-skulled argument that all drug users are meth head criminals, whereas the reality is remarkably different.
    I'm not saying everyone is a crack head, and is out raping and murdering, but to pretend that by legalizing drugs will suddenly stop people from 1) abusing drugs, 2) stop criminals from illegally trafficking in drugs (they'll just set up a new black market), 3) stop drug related crimes.

    And for all of you talking about people getting locked up for possessing marijuana, I'm still waiting for some one to show me an example of someone going to prison, or even jail for that matter, for having a couple of blunts.

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    Wyatt Earp Trigger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSumner View Post
    And for all of you talking about people getting locked up for possessing marijuana, I'm still waiting for some one to show me an example of someone going to prison, or even jail for that matter, for having a couple of blunts.
    Great point. The only people I've ever actually taken to jail we're those arrested for 'dangerous drugs' (meth/coke/heroin). All marijuana arrests are cite and release at the scene. Unless it's a dealer who is caught in the act.

    People doing time for marijuana are repeat repeat repeat offenders who don't seem to get it when they get a dozen probationary sentences. There seems to be the impression that minor or first time offenders are being locked up. That's just not the case.

  14. #74
    Senior Member DaveDash's Avatar
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    I haven't been talking about anything you think I am talking about. Seems you are making a straw man argument. The argument is not people being locked up over a bag of weed.

    My argument has been (if you read my posts) that all that money that is being spent by drug users on ALL drugs is going into the pockets of criminals, who use that money to push more crack, more meth, etc. I read a Harvard study that said by taxing cannabis alone the US government would make 8 billion a year.

    Not only that, all the money could be reinvested into healthcare, rehab, education, research, and prevention campaigns which have proved far more effective than LE ever will. If you want to win the war on drugs you win it with hearts and minds of the children, similar to what happened with smoking, they need to be educated that drugs are not cool, and the real dangers involved.

    By the time LE is involved with drug related cases it's already far too late. The money is better spent elsewhere. Too many jobs on the line though, backwards thinking of many Americans, and the DEA is far too entrenched for this problem to be solved.

  15. #75
    Senior Member Dominique's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveDash View Post
    I haven't been talking about anything you think I am talking about. Seems you are making a straw man argument. The argument is not people being locked up over a bag of weed.

    My argument has been (if you read my posts) that all that money that is being spent by drug users on ALL drugs is going into the pockets of criminals, who use that money to push more crack, more meth, etc. I read a Harvard study that said by taxing cannabis alone the US government would make 8 billion a year.

    Not only that, all the money could be reinvested into healthcare, rehab, education, research, and prevention campaigns which have proved far more effective than LE ever will. If you want to win the war on drugs you win it with hearts and minds of the children, similar to what happened with smoking, they need to be educated that drugs are not cool, and the real dangers involved.

    By the time LE is involved with drug related cases it's already far too late. The money is better spent elsewhere. Too many jobs on the line though, backwards thinking of many Americans, and the DEA is far too entrenched for this problem to be solved.
    Dave, I'm not singling you out with my comments, and if it's coming across that way, that wasn't my intention. As far as that study goes, do you really think that by legalizing and taxing weed, most of the people selling it are suddenly going to one 1) stop selling it illegally, get a license, and pay their taxes? Hell there's a HUGE black market for untaxed cigarettes, alcohol, and gasoline. Why would you think that this would be any different? So now instead of being picked up on a state charge, they're going to get hit with a fed charge and still end up getting locked up.

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