Prosecuting NATO for war crimes in Serbia? Νο, and you will be surprised why.

[LineDoggie]

Nope
Because to be a true WMD you need "fresh" chemicals and an efficient dispersal system

20 years old chemical ammos are as efficient as if you go to the store and buy industrial chemicals, stockpile them in an IED and detonates them. Why ? Because there is something in chemistry called half life of components....i.e chemical elements losing properties during their life (due to temperature, photolysis, natural decay etc etc)
So, You'll kill the unfortunate SOBs close to the point zero and poison some peole around; But you 'll never have a WMD effect
Mind you AQ did it against Jordanian intelligence building with industrial cannisters of chlorine and that was pretty efficient. They didn't need to have access to old VX or Tabun ammos that would have been useless cr*p

Really? How about you stand next to a WWI Mustard gas shell as it releases its filling eintstein...

http://www.aftermathww1.com/mustard.asp


from The Guardian Saturday 14 April 2001 Mustard gas leak town evacuated
Paul Webster in Paris

About 15,000 people living around the British first world war battlefield of Vimy in Flanders were forced to leave their homes yesterday after a huge dump of Great War ammunition started leaking waves of deadly mustard gas.

I guess the Belgian Army disagrees with you

[Afterglow]

Back to the topic of the Yugoslavia-thing: There was a religious civil war going on, and yes no suprise in such a civil war civilians suffer. The were atrocties commited on all sides with civilian losses propotional to the overall representation of the ethnic groups. With Croatia and Bosnia declaring independence from Belgrade huge serb minorities found themselves under the control of unfriendly governments they didn´t want and they didn´t elect btw, so they raised arms and received some help from Belgrade. In case there wouldn´t have been any foreign intervention they would have emerged victorious which would have meant that they would have broke away from those new countries and might have joined Serbia proper.
So bottom line atrocities YES, genocide NO.

You sir, have NO idea whatsoever what are you talking about. Plus, in your brilliant solution Croatia and Bosnia should have just rolled over and let themselves be partitioned ( you really believe that 71% of Bosnia is Serbian as was the state of the frontlines at some point? ).

People like you are one of the reasons that Balkans threads always go down in flames, with posting incredulous, shallow ( religious civil war? ) and sometimes downright insulting crap like this.

[The Kaiser Chief]

You are right with regards to that particular substance since it remains poisonous for many decades. If those shells or canisters were still combat ready is usually another question. Of course, in case of a leak or various leaks the gas is streaming out and will be still dangerous.
Saddam had Mustard gas..yet while using it against the Iranians or the Kurds the whole world kept quite silent. BTW he got most of that stuff from a Dutch merchant named Frans van Anraat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frans_van_Anraat). Rumour has it that this trade didn´t go unnoticed by the Dutch secret service (as such a large deal of those kind of chemicals can hardly be done unofficially) and it´s hard to imagine the Dutch officials did not inform their NATO partners about this business.

[The Kaiser Chief]

you really believe that 71% of Bosnia is Serbian as was the state of the frontlines at some point?

Where did I say that? I said redefinition of borders according to ethnicity might have prevented a civil war! This would also mean that the Croatian dominant areas of Bosnia would have joined Croatia. And now go and have a Slivovitz to that to swallow your anger.

[Corrupt]

There's plenty of evidence. I think the DoD is a pretty credible source, don't you?

Without commenting on the WMD issue in any way, it depends. I fully expect the DoD, our MoD and other similar departments world round to tell lies to maintain secrecy of plans/operations, protect identities and cover embarrasing mistakes.

For example ours told us that we had no ground troops in Libya. Now it turns out various special forces were there coordinating and calling in airstrikes. I'm not surprised by this revelation at all. Similarly, casualties among special forces are often not announced immediately or sometimes ever, wheras the BBC reports on casualties among other units within hours.

[Afterglow]

10charachters

[Afterglow]

You said that without foreign interventions Serbian forces would have been victorious and able to join Serbia - that is NOT redefinition of borders according to ethnicity and that is obvious with just a glance at the map or by knowing bare minimum about the ethnic makeup of contested areas. You also said it was a religious war which is insane.

You are uninformed, make sweeping generalizations and on top of that you are condescending. Im going out of this thread now because I dont wanna get banned on account of a pointless discussion with someone who has no idea on the subject.

[The Kaiser Chief]

To calm you down, I am not a Yugo of any sort, so I don´t have or had a horse in that race. We´re discussing about alternatives to civil war. The citation you are making is out the context as I said what would have happend in case of non-intervention, you Balkan expert you . Isn´t it that peculiar country of yours that feels betrayed itself about leaving a huge Croat minority out of its borders, being governed by some Federation? Didn´t you founding president Tudjman lobby attaching the Croat majority inhabited areas to Croatia proper?

[Afterglow]

I never thought you were a Yugo, I do know my African football, what I think is that you are someone who is little too quick on making judgements or presenting options that were highly unlikely on the ground or downright unrealistic. After all, Ive been there when all that stuff was going down so allow me to know a thing or two.

I am unaware of any particular feeling of betrayal in regards of Bosnian Croats that pervades Croatia, yes, the opinion is that they didnt get the best deal but we dont regard the Federation as "some" and any sort of division of Bosnia or/and annexing Croat parts of it are out of question. Croats have throughout history been part of the ethnic makeup of Bosnia and its in Croatian interest that they remain in the future, but as part of unified and sovereign BiH.

Tudjman wanting to annex parts of Bosnia is a murky and conflicting topic ( we can discuss it over PM if you wish, because there is so many different sources and views that it would overtake the topic ), the reality is that all sorts of plans were on the table in 1991 - 1995 period coming from international community and warring parties which included various partitionings and autonomous regions, however what he did sign was the Washington agreement and Split Declaration which effectively endorsed unified Bosnia and sealed Croatian - Bosniak alliance. In the end, Croatian stance on unified Bosnia is clear.

[Mordoror]

Really? How about you stand next to a WWI Mustard gas shell as it releases its filling eintstein...

http://www.aftermathww1.com/mustard.asp


from The Guardian Saturday 14 April 2001 Mustard gas leak town evacuated
Paul Webster in Paris

About 15,000 people living around the British first world war battlefield of Vimy in Flanders were forced to leave their homes yesterday after a huge dump of Great War ammunition started leaking waves of deadly mustard gas.

I guess the Belgian Army disagrees with you

Thanks genius. How about now you educate yourself with credible sources (and not the guardian) about chemistry to understand words like lysis and decay process.

http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims...l/mustardg.htm

http://cbwinfo.com/Chemical/Blister/HD.shtml

http://www.speclab.com/compound/c505602.htm

I guess that subtletly of analysis is not strong in you

[LineDoggie]

Thanks genius. How about now you educate yourself with credible sources (and not the guardian) about chemistry to understand words like lysis and decay process.

http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims...l/mustardg.htm

http://cbwinfo.com/Chemical/Blister/HD.shtml

http://www.speclab.com/compound/c505602.htm

I guess that subtletly of analysis is not strong in you

So Belgium didnt evacuate those 15,000 people? Yes or No?

[The Kaiser Chief]

If that is the case, so why did the Bosnian Croats raise arms against the other groups in the first place? I highly doubt that they we´re doing so to remain in an independent Bosnian state. Why do most Bosnian Croats still retain Croat citizenship? As I said, I have no horse in this race, but I don´t swallow the message that there were evil and less evil groups in that civil war. And why did the ICTY In the Tihomir Blaškić verdict, find that "Croatia, and more specifically former President Tuđman, was hoping to partition Bosnia and exercised such a degree of control over the Bosnian Croats and especially the HVO that it is justified to speak of overall control."http://www.icty.org/x/cases/blaskic/...-tj000303e.pdf
So let´s be honest at least about that topic...

[Corrupt]

It's known most, if not all, chemical weapons degrade over time as the compounds are generally very reactive. This is what makes them so dangerous, they react with compounds within the body, preventing essential reactions for life from occurring. Therefore in terms of use as a weapon, fresh stocks are much more reliable and predictable in terms of toxic effects, simply because the concentration and volume of the dangerous compound will be higher. Older stocks still have the potential to be harmful or even lethal, as not all of the dangerous compound may have reacted, but the the effects of will be less ****ounced than if a similar amount of fresh substance was used.

[Afterglow]

If that is the case, so why did the Bosnian Croats raise arms against the other groups in the first place? I highly doubt that they we´re doing so to remain in an independent Bosnian state. Why do most Bosnian Croats still retain Croat citizenship? As I said, I have no horse in this race, but I don´t swallow the message that there were evil and less evil groups in that civil war. And why did the ICTY In the Tihomir Blaškić verdict, find that "Croatia, and more specifically former President Tuđman, was hoping to partition Bosnia and exercised such a degree of control over the Bosnian Croats and especially the HVO that it is justified to speak of overall control."http://www.icty.org/x/cases/blaskic/...-tj000303e.pdf
So let´s be honest at least about that topic...

Croats didnt "raise arms" against other groups in BiH, they were under attack by Serbian and JNA forces as early as 1991 as BiH territory was used as staging area for attack on Dubrovnik and surrounding areas and was crucial for maintaining control of many parts of occupied Croatian territories. The first place that was attacked in the war in Bosnia was Ravno in october of 1991. As I said, you are pretty arbitrary about a lot of stuff.

I didnt say that Croatia didnt have ties with Bosnian Croats or that there was no traction to idea of some parts of Bosnia joining Croatia in political circles, I said that when unity of BiH is in question Croatia acted pretty clearly and has continued to support unified BiH.

[Mordoror]

So Belgium didnt evacuate those 15,000 people? Yes or No?

So what are the SOPs near a WWI and WWII ammo dump when there is even a slight risk of danger ?
Of course they were evacuated, of course there was risk
But again, you make a generality of a single example when i am talking about general rules

Chemical weapons like all chemical components are decomposing themselves over the time
And the more quickly if they are exposed to sun rays (UV lysis) and high temperatures (like a shell in the middle of the desert just to come back to the original discussion)
Why do you think that some chemical ammo were kept in refrigerated rooms or controled atmo rooms during cold war ?
I suggest that you stick to the areas you are admitely strong in (WWI and WWII weapons/equipments, US army organization) and stop antagonizing people on fields you do not fully understand nor master the subtelties, seemingly just for the sack of arguing.