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Thread: Not all civilisations equal, French minister says

  1. #76
    buck duck huck luck muck puck ruck suck tuck yuck fuuuuuuuu muck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BearInBunnySuit View Post
    Too much like Nazi Germany/Imperial Japan.
    Now that's what I would call 'bigotry'. Universal human rights, the equality of men and women, the rule of law and the domination of the constitutional state even over religion need not to be justified and their preferability needs not to be explained to anybody. He who questions the superiority of cultures that embrace these values and build nations upon it, does also question their rightness and universal validity.
    This is not 'racism', it's the truth.

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    Yes, I'm a chick BearInBunnySuit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muck View Post
    Now that's what I would call 'bigotry'. Universal human rights, the equality of men and women, the rule of law and the domination of the constitutional state even over religion need not to be justified and their preferability needs not to be explained to anybody. He who questions the superiority of cultures that embrace these values and build nations upon it, does also question their rightness and universal validity.
    This is not 'racism', it's the truth.
    I just had lunch so all the blood went to my stomach. Hence, I have no idea what you just said. Can you say that in plain English? Something I can understand without requiring too many brain cells, pleeeez.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordoror View Post
    Not up me to prove it as i won't take 205 countries each containing between 1 and X model of society and rebuke point par point each one
    Up to you to quote me a single society fitting 100 % of your description flawlessly
    I didn't say anything about flawlessly. "Flawless" is a meaningless term. Those that implemented more of these ideas or implemented them better are superior to those who didn't. So there ARE superior and inferior cultures. Period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BearInBunnySuit View Post
    I just had lunch so all the blood went to my stomach. Hence, I have no idea what you just said. Can you say that in plain English? Something I can understand without requiring too many brain cells, pleeeez.
    I dare say you understood my reply. Zeroing in on language instead of arguments could make you look like an ass, by the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by muck View Post
    Now that's what I would call 'bigotry'. Universal human rights, the equality of men and women, the rule of law and the domination of the constitutional state even over religion need not to be justified and their preferability needs not to be explained to anybody. He who questions the superiority of cultures that embrace these values and build nations upon it, does also question their rightness and universal validity.
    This is not 'racism', it's the truth.
    The problem is that it falls through as soon as you start looking at what all the states embracing these values have actually done, and are still doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarig View Post
    The problem is that it falls through as soon as you start looking at what all the states embracing these values have actually done, and are still doing.
    No it doesn't. No state has managed to follow them absolutely perfectly, because states are made up from people, and people are not perfect. But compared to other countries? You truly are pampered and ignorant if you honestly believe countries like France are no better than places like certain African and middle-eastern countries.

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    Senior Member Mordoror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_Wicked View Post
    I didn't say anything about flawlessly. "Flawless" is a meaningless term. Those that implemented more of these ideas or implemented them better are superior to those who didn't. So there ARE superior and inferior cultures. Period.
    Ah i see social Darwinism at its best. Without giving any clear graduation or classification of how you label a concept ito be superior to the same conceot implemented in another country/civilisation/people/culture. To conclude you have no clear way to explain your view but just vaporous words thrown in a internet post. I am still waiting from you to explain me which culture is superior to the other one and how, by naming and explaining your view in detail. Because when you put on the table something as superior or inferior either you have a mathematical way of justifying it, either this is simply an egocentric pov. And in that last case, a lot of people without your familial, historical, societal, background have the full right to disagree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordoror View Post
    Ah i see social Darwinism at its best.
    I wish you'd discard that term because that's not the case here.

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    Question to my beloved folks: When all civilizations are equal, why are the different civilizations?

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    Senior Member Mordoror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muck View Post
    I wish you'd discard that term because that's not the case here.
    I don't see why this is not the case here. Social darwinism was something applied or thought aboout some nations/cultures/societies/peoples at the beginning of the 19e century with the same idea : some nations/cultures/people were more young, more energetic, more manly, full of vigor economicaly, culturaly socialy, i.e in other words superior and others were old decadent both in their social and political structure, life philosophy and social cement/order i;e in other words inferior.

    That's the problem when you put an order superior:inferior; The ladder has to be justified. as i said in my answer to Wicked, your justification is either mathematical, rational provable and reproducible on objective criterias, either it is a self centered and self sufficient speech which has lost all relativism that may exist in true life, leading to such ideologies like social darwinism.

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    Yes, I'm a chick BearInBunnySuit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muck View Post
    I dare say you understood my reply. Zeroing in on language instead of arguments could make you look like an ass, by the way.
    Muck, I'm asking you to rephrase what you said because you responded to my post and I'm trying to understand what you are saying. How the hell can you accuse me of trying to argue with you when I don't even know what you said. What is so bad asking you to simplify/summarize. Why are you assuming that I'm latching on to your language as a form of argument. If I think you are stupid or your post is lame, I have no problems saying so. Now, kindly rephrase what your point is.
    Last edited by BearInBunnySuit; 02-06-2012 at 04:54 PM.

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    but some will argue that all cultures are equal

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    Quote Originally Posted by BearInBunnySuit View Post
    Muck, I'm asking you to rephrase what you said because you responded to my post and I'm trying to understand what you are saying. How the hell can you accuse me of trying to argue with you when I don't even know what you said. What is so bad asking you to simplify/summarize. Why are you assuming that I'm latching on to your language as a form of argument. If I think you are stupid or your post is lame, I have no problems saying so. Now, kindly rephrase what your point is.
    Maybe I got you wrong then. Anyways, the Wicked gave a good summary of what I was saying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordoror View Post
    I don't see why this is not the case here. Social darwinism was something applied or thought aboout some nations/cultures/societies/peoples at the beginning of the 19e century with the same idea : some nations/cultures/people were more young, more energetic, more manly, full of vigor economicaly, culturaly socialy, i.e in other words superior and others were old decadent both in their social and political structure, life philosophy and social cement/order i;e in other words inferior.

    That's the problem when you put an order superior:inferior; The ladder has to be justified. as i said in my answer to Wicked, your justification is either mathematical, rational provable and reproducible on objective criterias, either it is a self centered and self sufficient speech which has lost all relativism that may exist in true life, leading to such ideologies like social darwinism.
    Actually it's awefully simple. Do you like the idea of uneducated clergymen handing out death sentences for adultery or homose[*******#000080]x[/COLOR]uali[*******#000080]t[/COLOR]y? Do you think women deserve the whip for driving a car? Do you agree with media censorship by a rigorous religious police?
    If not, you'll find yourself disliking certain aspects about the culture of Saudi Arabia. And wouldn't you agree that the status quo in France is preferrable over the situation in Saudi Arabia?

    If yes, wouldn't that make the French culture seem better to you than the Saudi-Arabian?

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    Senior Member Mordoror's Avatar
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    Actually it's awefully simple. Do you like the idea of uneducated clergymen handing out death sentences for adultery or homose[*******#000080]x[/COLOR]uali[*******#000080]t[/COLOR]y? Do you think women deserve the whip for driving a car? Do you agree with media censorship by a rigorous religious police?
    If not, you'll find yourself disliking certain aspects about the culture of Saudi Arabia. And wouldn't you agree that the status quo in France is preferrable over the situation in Saudi Arabia?

    If yes, wouldn't that make the French culture seem better to you than the Saudi-Arabian?
    Of course for me what happens in KSA is unbearable and i largely prefer my french culture. But as i said when we are discussing that issue, we are losing the relativism of things. For a saoudi his culture is better. For a french hobo, his culture is bad while for a rich congolese, his culture is nice. We have to be careful with this ladder and remind ourselves the perspectives of things. Not everybody encompasses, is formed and has learned the ideas and concept of "lumières".
    These philosophical concepts may very well be unique to our western world. Yet, because we feel some kind of superiority, we try to shove them in the throats of societies who are not equiped nor willing to deal with them.
    And that never gives the awaited result.

    Moreover a possible "civilisational" or "cultural" superiority may be true in some areas and at a given time. (For example our justice system can be regarded as superior to the KSa one because you don't cut the hands of thieves, yet some people may argue that the KSa's one is superior because they seldomly have thieves in the streets) nothing is frozen. The rise and fall of hellinistic, roman and Islamic golden age should have learnt us that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Kaiser Chief View Post
    OMG just because I admit that China is on the rise doesn´t mean I am Chinese! How many years of schooling did you enjoy before you learned to switch on that computer?
    You didn't say china was on the rise, you said it was a superior culture.

    How many year of schooling? I don't know i was a super young kid when i first switched on a 386 or something.

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