Sarkozy vs. Hollande

[Telmar]

+100

...

To be frank we don't have anymore political elite (but given the reading here, that's quite the same thing everywhere else around the world). They are all bureaucrats, technocrats and selfish careerists. None has a true vision of the Nation with big N. So whover gets elected ......mehhhh

The only area where things may change is in the military and diplomatic area (but that's not something that will influence the vote of french people)
...

Well that's not just in politics. But to be honest, I welcome the dissapearance of ideologues in the political sphere. They have done enough damage in the world and in France from hateful regimes to implementing or de-implementing regulations that destroy the economical environment.

I wish we had someone whose main interest was the fate of the country and who would take the time to make smart decisions rather than to spit his or hers vision of the economy...a vision that anyways is the product of Sciences Po and ENA and quite distant from the real world. As you say, there are the same nomenklatura and few of them had led the life of a middle class guy in a middle class neighborhood.

[Mat_fr]

-100000000
Try, just one sec, to think about the magnificent 5 years of Bécassine du Poitou would have been.

I'm talking about what i've seen during past 5 years, not "what could have been" with another president.

Mr Sarkozy failed hard at his presidency, and the "fear" and "it could have been worse with socialists !" cards are ridiculous. Try to defend what he have done instead.

I'm delighted at the good relations of France and Germany under the current governments and I know for certain that a lot of Germans feel the same.

Mr Sarkozy is an opportunist. At the beginning of his presidency he was a Tony Blair fan saying that "In France we've never done a genocid (booh Germany)" and at the end we've got a Germany lover trying to tell us that we must stick to the "famous" german model. Oh well, I thought you were liberal british fan, Mr. President...

[Honneur et Patrie]

Sarkozy had the balls to launch two explosive debates : the national identity (which clearly showed the worry of french people concerning immigration and especially islamic immigration but was hijacked by the far right populists) and the retirement evolution project (which was erased due to the unrests following the debate)... But his attitude, his political allies (Balkany for example), his support for the Lisbon treaty (which implement all the main goals/means of the european constitution which was rejected by referendum) and the loss (or supposed loss) of living standart ruined his credibility. And now his new widely publicized admiration for the german example don't help him to gain voters to his cause (french people don't like german people and journalists have widely explained that Germany currently has 20 % of poor workers, some earning no more than 400 € a month without social benefits, comparing to nearly 1100 € a month for the french minimal legal wage with full social benefits).

Sadly there is no solution for France : every french citizen consume 6% more than he produce, there are no more industries. So the unique exit will be trashing our social welfare (no matter if we gave up the Euro or not) which will certainly lead to hard riots like in Greece... Neither Sarkozy nor Holland will save our country... So don't be surprised if Marine Le Pen and Jean-Luc Mélanchon are attractive for many voters.

And for Marine Le Pen, don't forget France lack any conservative party/movement. Right-wing politicians definite themselves as liberals not conservative. Marine Le Pen is the last french politician to speak on conservative values like the family, the homeland or the occidental culture. The other politicians have left all this subjects to the FN for decades, it's not surprising that when they want to speak on it (like the national identity debate) they're wipped out by the far-right militants!

[xav]

If the left is elected there will be less external interventions i think

Just to play the "devils'" advocate here... and I know this is what most people think but truth is:
Korea war: Socialist government send troops
Indochina and Algeria: There were socialists in power and they didn't "stop the war early"
(credits go to Fusilier and Pascal over at http://www.air-defense.net/forum/ind...3203#msg593203, otherwise even I would have had the same opinion as you Mordoror)


And IIRC, was it under one of Mitterand term, or Jospin government that Rafale's budget didn't get cut or something like that? (Again, Pascal brings it up every now and then)

[Atlantic Friend]

It's not as if we're facing a drastic choice of society with this election, despite all the hype the candidates try to create and the usual "France/the social fabric will be destroyed if the other guy is elected" rhetoric drummed on by activists from both sides.

All societies, the French included, have a certain momentum that, barring dramatic circumstances, make it difficult to steer towards a new direction. Last time I checked, the dynamics of French society didn't change that much whether the Republic's guest at the Elysée was Giscard, Mitterrand, Chirac, or Sarkozy, and even if Hollande succeeds in his presidential bid I'm pretty confident the country will still be the same.

The biggest changes we have known haven't been laid upon us by the Elysée's host, it's been a result of economic, social, demographic, technological, and geopolitical forces. Some legislation will acknowledge, or even embrace the changes; some other will fight the changes or try to attenuate them, but in the end changes will come from the bottom up, not from the top down.

So as for the coming election, I have voted for Nicolas Sarkozy in 2007, and I plan to again cast my ballot in his favor in 2012, for a variety of reasons. I've never felt the need to idolize or demonize candidates, whether I vote for them or not, and as far as I am concerned they're both equally respectable, and equally flawed men.

[Telmar]

I vote for Sarkozy as well. All in all, I like the team he has put forward and boasts the pragmatism that I like. He also got us closer to America after excessive and unwarranted counter reaction from Chirac during the Irak war crisis. It's unfortunate IMO that his presidency will be remembered by gimmicks (and some I really did not like) although much work has been done behind the scenes.

Hollande is a respectable guy, but I cannot accept someone who does not draw the line with the communists and the extreme left. Lacks executive experience as well. It will show quite fast. I think all those socialist leaders will want a seat and it will be tough for Hollande to have authority.

[TG211]

...

If it comes to choose who'd do the least damage in this time of crisis, I fear I'd vote on the right... Despite hating their ideology, they still have more ground into reality that the lefties.

Oh, if Villepin didn't mess up, I would have voted for him...

[xav]

Hollande is a respectable guy, but I cannot accept someone who does not draw the line with the communists and the extreme left. Lacks executive experience as well. It will show quite fast. I think all those socialist leaders will want a seat and it will be tough for Hollande to have authority.

Are you kidding? IMHO he is the "least worst" of all those who ran for the primaries.
He didn't take no **** from the Green party, saying PS signed the agreement without his consent etc...

What makes you say he draws no line with far left?

I won't vote for him but I am truly glad he got the nomination instead of Royale/Aubry/De Montebourg/Vals etc... (DSK would have been even better but oh well) just in case he wins (which he likely will given the current polls)

And I agree with you regarding Sarkozy rebuilding ties with US. With a wife from the US (and therefore many relatives/friends/familly living there, in the south mind you!) I really don't miss the 2002/2003 era. After Obama became president, I remember my FL neighbors kidding (actually some of them might have been serious ) about how for the first time France had a more conservative President than in the US.

Also, the feeling I have when looking at the current polls: French people are never happy.

They bitched about Chirac for being too passive, for his lack of actions and reforms (especially during second term) and now they bitch about Sarkozy "the hyper president" for taking too many actions, reforms etc

[Mordoror]

They bitched about Chirac for being too passive, for his lack of actions and reforms (especially during second term) and now they bitch about Sarkozy "the hyper president" for taking too many actions, reforms etc

The problem is that there is a middle path that was never implemented
between the passivity of Chirac (nothing done for years)
and the air stirring and media conduced policy of N.S (one event making the headlines or sometimes even page 2 or 3 in the medias = our president very agitated and him establishing a new law declared, a new law that will never be appliied.......the last one being the joke of a law against the illegal gold digging in Guyane)
we need a middle path, smoother but with projections for the future

Unfortunately i see nobody able to do that ............

[Telmar]

Are you kidding? IMHO he is the "least worst" of all those who ran for the primaries.
He didn't take no **** from the Green party, saying PS signed the agreement without his consent etc...

What makes you say he draws no line with far left?

snip

Agreed. He is not the worse by far regarding ideology. But I would have welcomed the socialists choosing a real Social Democrat such as Valls. I would have had a tougher choice with Valls than with Hollande on who to vote for.

Hollande is an old school socialist and accepts the socialist party as the democratic side of the far left parties. He knows that the party will stand behind him only if he looks more left than to the center. There is an allergy into that party against the state not micro-managing everything.

"Similarly, with the Left Front, there will be friction. We know which candidate it has chosen and he likes this kind of confrontation," said Francois Hollande about Jean-Luc Melenchon. "And at the same time, it is the left. And the left, it will be reunited, gathered. We'll be together for the election of 2012

http://www.franceinfo.fr/france-pres...300-9-508.html


We'll see in the end.

Cheers.

[Frenchdude]

Hollande is a respectable guy, but I cannot accept someone who does not draw the line with the communists and the extreme left. Lacks executive experience as well. It will show quite fast. I think all those socialist leaders will want a seat and it will be tough for Hollande to have authority.

I kind of agree with you here, i'm quite disgusted by the free pass that the socialists often deliver to far left left guys like Mélenchon, knowing that they support ideas once supported by criminal regimes and ideologues. But Sarkozy doesn't seem to draw a line between UMP and the far right either.

[Mordoror]

But Sarkozy doesn't seem to draw a line between UMP and the far right either.

That
+ the fact that he is giving away Legion d'Honneur like candies (Shakira ffs !!!). Say that i am too much focused on symbols but lowering the value of our most important national reward speaks volume about his view of the Nation.

[BogT]

...I am not rich enough to be a socialist...

Of topic:
This is the quirkiness phrase I read in years. I will use it it in the future!

On topic:
Do the French people see that they have real choice or is a "least of two evils" type deal.

[Telmar]

I kind of agree with you here, i'm quite disgusted by the free pass that the socialists often deliver to far left left guys like Mélenchon, knowing that they support ideas once supported by criminal regimes and ideologues. But Sarkozy doesn't seem to draw a line between UMP and the far right either.

The National Front won't be in any future UMP government if there is one.

Going after the voter =/= offering positions to extremist parties.

[Patrick974]

The National Front won't be in any future UMP government if there is one.

Going after the voter =/= offering positions to extremist parties.

The UMP "Union pour une Brasserie Populaire" steal FN ideas and never apply them. I'm scratching my head as to how middle-class French can still and go vote for Sarko.