Originally Posted by jAwAn!
First it is to be determined who has the jurisdiction on the case.
only then the legitimate authotrites can proceed with interrogations and judicial acts to prove what you take for sure
It is not only an Italian law. It is a principle of international law.o, but they represent the italian interests abroad and by our law they are covered by immunity. Which does not mean they cannot be trialed, but only by an italian military court.
MIlitaries in the execution of their duties "are their Country". Substantially it is the same thing as the ambassadors. Their personal responsability comes at stake only about what are considered to be "crimes against humanity"
The Ship, Captian, Marines all under Indian "Custody"..... not too hard to figure out which side of the court has the balls now, but there is always room for diplomacy!!!
The Captain complied to ICG to dock the ship at Cochin shipyard in the pretext that we misunderstood fishermen as 'pirates" so no question "who" fired the shots and absolutely no question of "who" got killed.....let Court take cares of the Immunity!
Last edited by jAwAn!; 02-19-2012 at 06:51 PM.
Times of India is reporting 2 Italian navy personnel have been charged with murder.
this is a new development.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/11956335.cms
Italians arrested, charged with murder for killing fishermen
NEW DELHI: Two Italian naval personnel have been arrested and charged with murder four days after two Indian fishermen were shot dead by the crew of an Italian ship. The arrest comes after the Indian government told Italy that the law would take its course against the Italian crew, because the fishermen were unarmed.
An official and legal delegation from Italy arrived on Sunday for talks with Indian officials to try to delay the arrest of their naval personnel, but Indian officials insisted that the crime had occurred on an Indian vessel which means India had jurisdiction over prosecution and investigation of the crime.
The accused were brought to Kochi by the police on Sunday. Earlier, the crew members of Enrica Lexie were interrogated by the police and were asked to surrender by 8 am on Sunday. They will be produced before the magistrate in Kochi in 24 hours.
by now there is now scientific evidence (bullet comparison or GPS datas) that confirms in any way the indian version and it's very easy to have some proof, just check the ship's black box, it will say where the ship was when the incident took place. If it was in international water india has no jurisdiction on the case since it is an italian ship in international waters. Then, india has no jurisdiction since they are military personnel and they have immunity.
I'm sorry to say that india in this case is breaking several international laws
Fail. You were the one claiming Economic Zone is Territorial Waters. Relax and leave it to the professionals....i know what you are intending to say...
More details...
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the...r-india/224233
Retd. IN Commodore thinks it is not a diplomatic issue.
It is now out of question that this issue is being used politically in view of the next Indian elections, besides some muscle flexing by India, something that is further corroborated by some comments here from our Indian friends, along the lines of India strong and so on...
It is a manoeuvre to put Sonia Gandhi in trouble, one of those cases where politicians are exploiting for personal gains the loss of life of two persons.
Our San Marco fusiliers are known for their professionalism, testified by their frequent and successful use in military missions abroad just everywhere.
I do not believe that they shot at random unless they assumed there was a real danger for the merchant vessel.
I hope that the situation can be sorted out quickly and that the generally good relations between India and Italy can be restored without too much of a fuss. But the handling of this matter from Indian authorities does not seem to support this espoir.
In my factory here in Italy I have 10 Indian migrant workers and I must tell you that the situation here is a bit tense... We have thousands of migrant workers from India in Northern Italy and I strongly hope that their personal interests will be also considered by the Indian rulers.
We are a country where migrants are normally accepted especially hard working and quiet Indians but their government must act sensibly too to prevent damages to bilateral relations, inclusive with these workers.
I do not care about "balls" ... but if you can not discern between legittimate and illegitimate acts I think you shoul improve your knowledge about international law, and law in general indeed.
About other things you write ... It is one of the few assured thing in this affair. Indian Coast Guard asked the Italian commander to go back to indian territorial water with the trick of "pirates recognition". Luckily italin commander has required a written order!"
Last: Indian courts have no legal authority to decide anything about someone protected by immunity!
indian political class using a trivial issue like killing of two fishermen by Italian military for the next election(2014) is a laughable statement.There are issues million times more severe than this.And regarding sonia gandhi,let me tell you Signor,it is not an issue in southern India and none of the 700 political parties except for the hindu nationalist raise up the issue of her origin.
is that a threat? ... Those Indians who went to italy went illegally and without any govt approval, hence there is very little we can do for them.In my factory here in Italy I have 10 Indian migrant workers and I must tell you that the situation here is a bit tense... We have thousands of migrant workers from India in Northern Italy and I strongly hope that their personal interests will be also considered by the Indian rulers.
We are a country where migrants are normally accepted especially hard working and quiet Indians but their government must act sensibly too to prevent damages to bilateral relations, inclusive with these workers.
Absolutely BS. This incident has nothing to do with Sonia Gandhi being Italian born. In case you did not know she is the most powerful person in India today and nobody can even come close to her. This just mumbo jumbo conjured by some jokers in the Italian press.
I am sure they are known for their professionalism but to err is human.Our San Marco fusiliers are known for their professionalism, testified by their frequent and successful use in military missions abroad just everywhere. I do not believe that they shot at random unless they assumed there was a real danger for the merchant vessel.
How can you say that ? They were taken into custody and put up in a nice Guest house and not some jail. They are being questioned by the authorities as per the Indian judicial system.I hope that the situation can be sorted out quickly and that the generally good relations between India and Italy can be restored without too much of a fuss. But the handling of this matter from Indian authorities does not seem to support this espoir.
I am sure that the Italian authorities would have taken the same steps that the Indian authorities had the case been the other way round.
What exactly are you trying to say ? As for the term "Indian rulers" please understand that the person running the country today is Sonia Gandhi, who as you are well aware of Italian origin, which again reflects that we Indians have no bias towards Italians.In my factory here in Italy I have 10 Indian migrant workers and I must tell you that the situation here is a bit tense... We have thousands of migrant workers from India in Northern Italy and I strongly hope that their personal interests will be also considered by the Indian rulers.
Indian law will take its own course.
I am sure they are known for their professionalism but to err is human.
hTrue that, keep in mind that it works both ways. There are two versions here.
How can you say that ? They were taken into custody and put up in a nice Guest house and not some jail. They are being questioned by the authorities as per the Indian judicial system.
They can't be put in jail, your police has no jurisdiction!
I am sure that the Italian authorities would have taken the same steps that the Indian authorities had the case been the other way round.
Most likely, if the Indians would have given them up for questioning, like the Italians did.
Indian law will take its own course.
No it won't because it can't. Those men have immunity, period. They are representatives of a foreign state! Even if the incident would have happened in territorial waters, which it didn't, according to satellite pics. They gave them up willingly for questioning. Your government better understand that. You have no legal leg to stand on.
^^^ First point that you have to understand that two Indian fishermen have died in the incident.
Secondly a high level diplomatic team from Italy is already in Kollam including the Italian ambassador in India.
They will be produced in a court today (Not actually a court, since its a public holiday they would be taken to the Magistrate's residence)
IMHO the magistrate will order the accussed to be held in custody for another 7 days or so and they would be taken to the CISF Guesthouse where they have been put up. (Again I stress upon the fact that they are being held at a CISF Guesthouse and not some jail)
All this talk about they having immunity or Indian actions are illegal are moot now as they are already in Indian custody.
And as I said before Indian Law will take course no matter how much people rant and rave and issue subtle threats.
^^^ First point that you have to understand that two Indian fishermen have died in the incident.
Nobody's saying otherwise. Totally understand the feeling among the people. That is not under dispute as far as I am concerned.
Secondly a high level diplomatic team from Italy is already in Kollam including the Italian ambassador in India.
That is also not under dispute.
They will be produced in a court today (Not actually a court, since its a public holiday they would be taken to the Magistrate's residence)
I remember reading that.
IMHO the magistrate will order the accussed to be held in custody for another 7 days or so and they would be taken to the CISF Guesthouse where they have been put up. (Again I stress upon the fact that they are being held at a CISF Guesthouse and not some jail)
Of course they are not in jail. As I said before, to me, this is just a legal show since international law is clear on the subject. The Indian authorities will want to appear strong in the face of public resentment, but they know very well there is nothing they can do to those soldiers. Unless they want to go against accepted practices, set a dangerous precedent and risk having their diplomats rotting in jail in some countries for minor violations. That is why representatives of state have immunity. And these soldiers are representatives of Italy.
All this talk about they having immunity or Indian actions are illegal are moot now as they are already in Indian custody.
As I said before, of their own will. There is some talk in Italy as to why the ship changed course and entered Indian waters, when the orders from the Italian Navy were to proceed. I guess in the coming days we will learn more and maybe find out about the autopsy and the bullet riden boat. Also, since satellite pics seem to agree with the Italian version that they were in international waters, will be interesting to see how the Indian government tries to explain jurisdiction.
And as I said before Indian Law will take course no matter how much people rant and rave and issue subtle threats.
I don't think I issued any threats. Of course at this point your authorities are commited and can't back down, but as I said it will be interesting to find out how far they are willing to go and set precedent.
From your own words, it is clear that international laws do not seem to be of paramount concern for India. Consequently your rulers seem to be more eager to please rabid public opinion (have you read some Indian blogs where the hunger for revenge is simply bloodturning?) that taking into consideration long-term consequences.
Satellite pictures prove that our merchant vessel was in international laws, but this does not seem to be of any interest for revenge bent Indians.
I am only afraid that our soldiers will be the scapegoats of some political ranting and bullying game between extremist Indian parties.
From a country sending thousands of migrants to Italy asking for work, as evidently they do not have the means to be supported there, I would have expected a more moderate and considerate policy.
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