Two fishermen shot dead by Italian ship off Kerala coast

[twinblade]

From your own words, it is clear that international laws do not seem to be of paramount concern for India. Consequently your rulers seem to be more eager to please rabid public opinion (have you read some Indian blogs where the hunger for revenge is simply bloodturning?) that taking into consideration long-term consequences.

Seriously, what else do you expect ? I mean what in your opinion should be the "reasonable" reaction? Letting them go without even checking the possibilities that there exists any legal option either in Indian or Italian judicial system ?

Satellite pictures prove that our merchant vessel was in international laws, but this does not seem to be of any interest for revenge bent Indians.

Would you be kind enough to post them on this forum if you have access to them ? Are they of the precise moment when the incident happened ?

I am only afraid that our soldiers will be the scapegoats of some political ranting and bullying game between extremist Indian parties.

You seem to be an expert on what's going on in Indian political scene. Can you point me out which political party is trying to drive mileage out of it ? Its election time across 5 states in India and politicos are throwing up all kinds of rhetoric. Any article pertaining to any party using this issue for political mileage would not be very hard to find.

From a country sending thousands of migrants to Italy asking for work, as evidently they do not have the means to be supported there, I would have expected a more moderate and considerate policy.

[troll on]
I have come across quite a few Italian consultants in India working on projects. As evident Italy doesn't have the means to support them. I would expect a more moderate and considerate policy than allegedly using lethal force on possibly unarmed fishermen and trying to slip off without immediately alerting the nearest possible coast guard/ naval service.
[/troll off]

[Galaverna]

Seriously, what else do you expect ? I mean what in your opinion should be the "reasonable" reaction? Letting them go without even checking the possibilities that there exists any legal option either in Indian or Italian judicial system ?

Apparently you suggest that in order to placate public opinion, excited as it is since one hundred people are in the street denouncing Italy in this same moment in Kollam, arbitrary measures ignorant of international norms should be taken?


Would you be kind enough to post them on this forum if you have access to them ? Are they of the precise moment when the incident happened ?

They will be made public soon as they are already in the hands of our authorities.

You seem to be an expert on what's going on in Indian political scene. Can you point me out which political party is trying to drive mileage out of it ? Its election time across 5 states in India and politicos are throwing up all kinds of rhetoric. Any article pertaining to any party using this issue for political mileage would not be very hard to find.

Just an example BJP as opposed to the current INC in power.


[troll on]
I have come across quite a few Italian consultants in India working on projects. As evident Italy doesn't have the means to support them. I would expect a more moderate and considerate policy than allegedly using lethal force on possibly unarmed fishermen and trying to slip off without immediately alerting the nearest possible coast guard/ naval service.
[/troll off]

You are conveniently forgetting the fact that a contractor is there for a limited period with a job assignment that when completed brings to his return home, your fellow contrymen are here since 10 years with no intention whatsoever to go back, quite the opposite indeed as they are growing children, buying houses here and so on.
Please understand the difference rather than recurring to facepalm arguments that just prove you do not have a point here.

[sgtfcm]

I think we should steer back to the main thread and leave rantings out of here.

I have some questions and I did not read the answers anywhere so far:

1) the authopsies were made and bullets recovered. Italians say that the results were not disclosed though. Now, we already knew that the 2 poor fishermen did not die for a flu. Any newspaper said the caliber of the bullets at least? Since our marines did not surrender their guns, how did they know that the italians shot the rounds? How did they ID the shooters? The 2 marines that went on shore are the 2 NCO's (one is the team leader).
2) why the Captain of the merchant vessel left international waters to enter indian territorial waters? Merchant ships have a limited sovereignty. Once they entered indian waters, their actions sound legit to me, although it would be very interesting to follow all the legal implcations which will follow.

[hulaku]

I think we should steer back to the main thread and leave rantings out of here.

x 2.

Also they have been sent into Police custody till the 23rd of February and Judicial custody for 11 days after that

Kochi: Two Italian navy personnel who allegedly shot dead two Indian fishermen off the Kerala coast last Wednesday, have been sent to police custody till February 23. They will then be remanded to judicial custody for the next 11 days till February 5. The order was ****ounced today by a magistrate in Kollam district in front of whom the duo was produced.

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/in...-lateststories

[twinblade]

Apparently you suggest that in order to placate public opinion, excited as it is since one hundred people are in the street denouncing Italy in this same moment in Kollam, arbitrary measures ignorant of international norms should be taken?

I didn't suggest any such thing. A public outrage is expected in any such sticky situation. It isn't wise to get outraged over outrage.

Satellite pictures prove that our merchant vessel was in international laws, but this does not seem to be of any interest for revenge bent Indians.

They will be made public soon as they are already in the hands of our authorities.

So I believe you have had access to satellite pictures since your authorities haven't ?

Just an example BJP as opposed to the current INC in power.

INC is in power both in state and the centre, they are the ones in the driving seat. As far as BJP is concerned, things would have been moving in the same direction if they were in power. BJP has virtually zero presence in Kerala and its 3 years for the national election where they might be able to get any mileage out of it. As far as ongoing elections are concerned, they are being fought on local issues. This issue happens to be a non starter.

Edit: Even if it might have had an effect, the authorities will retain custody till the last polling day (4th march), nullifying any chance of any political mileage.


http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/in...-lateststories

You are conveniently forgetting the fact that a contractor is there for a limited period with a job assignment that when completed brings to his return home, your fellow contrymen are here since 10 years with no intention whatsoever to go back, quite the opposite indeed as they are growing children, buying houses here and so on.
Please understand the difference rather than recurring to facepalm arguments that just prove you do not have a point here.

Frankly, I have seen too many India specific threads derail on this forum just by mentioning
a)poverty and GoI's misplaced priorities
b) reasons for Indian Immigration
This thread has more or less stayed on topic and I do not wish to see it derailed.
If the issue of legal/illegal immigrants irks you so much,
a)Write to your senator about it.
OR
b)Trick those Indians into getting on a boat and send it close to an Italian merchant vessel. Problem solved.

[Nirvana]

Italians here are shouting about "immunity" ... there is no immunity for murderers ... and as two indian fishermen are killed . indian navy has every right to catch them whether in territorial waters or international... now handing over to international court will be a different thing, which can be pursued and if in international waters they should be tried in such court..

having said this i would say this issue will be over once the fishermen's family are compensated .

[sgtfcm]

Immunity does not mean impunity. Moreover, once the Captain brought the ship within indian territorial waters, as far as I know, there was no violation of international laws by the indians. But the case indeed is interesting on a legal point of view.

I don't agree on your last sentence. Money does not bring them back but at least will feed their families. Justice and compensation will serve them better imo.

Any indian newspaper released authopsy relevant informations or informations about the recovered bullets? where are the proofs that would frame the italians?
Arresting and trialing the team leader and vice team leader does not mean you got the shooters. You have to prove that their weapons are those involved in the murder of the 2 fishermen and also that the vessel was there.
So far, I have read none about these proofs.

[Nirvana]

Oops sorry abt that spelling mistake.. yeah i also don't think money will bring justice .... but instead of making this a international issue where the relations between two countries may suffer..... they should try to settle this matter privately as soon as possible ..

[wheeleuss]

Immunity does not mean impunity. Moreover, once the Captain brought the ship within indian territorial waters, as far as I know, there was no violation of international laws by the indians. But the case indeed is interesting on a legal point of view.

I don't agree on your last sentence. Money does not bring them back but at least will feed their families. Justice and compensation will serve them better imo.

Any indian newspaper released authopsy relevant informations or informations about the recovered bullets? where are the proofs that would frame the italians?
Arresting and trialing the team leader and vice team leader does not mean you got the shooters. You have to prove that their weapons are those involved in the murder of the 2 fishermen and also that the vessel was there.
So far, I have read none about these proofs.

only to avoid further confusion: It is now enough clear that the murder took place out of indian territorial waters. This is by itself sufficient to override any claim!


P.S.The captain of the ship will respond to italian authorities when he will be back in Italy. I think he and/or Italian foreign ministry have many things to explain. First of all: why the ship came back into indian territorial waters?

[sgtfcm]

Indeed. First step will be share with italian authorities and investigators the proofs. So far I have not read anything detailed about that. It must be them is a bit vague as accusation. I want to see the ship logbook, sat images of the vsl there, ballistic reports, etc.
It doesn't have to become a muscle exercise between the 2 countries, just a plain and simple police investigation for murder.

[pg_ord]

Any indian newspaper released authopsy relevant informations or informations about the recovered bullets? where are the proofs that would frame the italians?
Arresting and trialing the team leader and vice team leader does not mean you got the shooters. You have to prove that their weapons are those involved in the murder of the 2 fishermen and also that the vessel was there.
So far, I have read none about these proofs.

All these things (including ballistics and GPS location) should be out in open when the case is heard in court. FYI fishermen's boat has been riddled with 16 bullet holes from the firing.

<speculation>
Firing took place between 1500 hrs and 1600 hrs, which seems like day time to me. Unless there was a severe fog/storm I am not sure how they could not make out if the fishermen were not armed. They could have used binoculars or some such device to determine that I would think.
</speculation>

[sgtfcm]

only to avoid further confusion: It is now enough clear that the murder took place out of indian territorial waters. This is by itself sufficient to override any claim!


P.S.The captain of the ship will respond to italian authorities when he will be back in Italy. I think he and/or Italian foreign ministry have many things to explain. First of all: why the ship came back into indian territorial waters?

you are taking for granted that the Enrica Lexia was there at the time of the murder of the 2 fishermen . The 2 NCO's of the protection team version is that they were not involved in the shootings and murder of the 2 fishermen. They say they were involved in a different incident.

Even if the murder occurred in international waters, once the ship entered the indian territorial waters, they have jurisdiction! It's not a military Navy ship, it's a merchant ship and they have limited sovereignty!

[sgtfcm]

All these things (including ballistics and GPS location) should be out in open when the case is heard in court. FYI fishermen's boat has been riddled with 16 bullet holes from the firing.

<speculation>
Firing took place between 1500 hrs and 1600 hrs, which seems like day time to me. Unless there was a severe fog/storm I am not sure how they could not make out if the fishermen were not armed. They could have used binoculars or some such device to determine that I would think.
</speculation>

That's another thing not clear. By law, when they embark on a merchant ship they have to declare and manifest how many ammo they have on board. The italian version is that they shoot 3 warning sequences, approx 20-24 shots. Now, it is quite strange that they hit the boat with 16 bullets + 4 mortal shots. they were shooting at a distance of 100-150 meters from a ship to another ship...ok they're trained but 20 hits over 20 shots? It should be quite easy to count how many bullets have been fired.
they signaled the boat,showed their weapons before firing the warning shots. How come the boat did not change direction and kept approaching?

[jAwAn!]

only to avoid further confusion: It is now enough clear that the murder took place out of indian territorial waters. This is by itself sufficient to override any claim!

Did Italian government already released any satellite image???

[wheeleuss]

you are taking for granted that the Enrica Lexia was there at the time of the murder of the 2 fishermen . The 2 NCO's of the protection team version is that they were not involved in the shootings and murder of the 2 fishermen. They say they were involved in a different incident.

Even if the murder occurred in international waters, once the ship entered the indian territorial waters, they have jurisdiction! It's not a military Navy ship, it's a merchant ship and they have limited sovereignty!

No sorry. I am not taking that for granted. Fishermen have said that the facts (what facts has to be verified) took place at 33 nm from the coast, and even indian prosecutor says 22.5 nm (why this discrepancies: i think because they are trying to consider Contiguous zone as territorial waters! And there is a reason for that!!). If it is true it is irrelevant, from the point of view of Indian jurisdiction, if Italian ship was there or not.