Two fishermen shot dead by Italian ship off Kerala coast

[jAwAn!]

A local media just reported that: Kerala Ballistic team has positively identified the 2 guns involved in the shooting incident, and they have submitted the report to Kollam Chief Judicial Magistrate Court. This report will eventually be handed over to Kerala Police in coming days.

Source: Manorama Online (Google can't translate the local language 'Malayalam' so does I without some help)

[DaviDelta]

A local media just reported that: Kerala Ballistic team has positively identified the 2 guns involved in the shooting incident, and they have submitted the report to Kollam Chief Judicial Magistrate Court. This report will eventually be handed over to Kerala Police in coming days.

Source: Manorama Online (Google can't translate the local language 'Malayalam' so does I without some help)

Do they mean that they simply identified the weapons that fired on 15 february the warning shots? or that they matched the italian weapons with the bullets hitting the boat and killing the fishermen? this makes quite a big difference...
It would be interesting if you find something more detailed on this point because it's the core of the whole story and it should be quite easy to solve: they have weapons, they have the mortal bullets, they have the solution (unless the solution is not what is expected). The fact that two weapons with 5.56 caliber have fired that day and that the same caliber killed two people is simply not enough to hold two foreign soldiers.

[jAwAn!]

Do they mean that they simply identified the weapons that fired on 15 february the warning shots? or that they matched the italian weapons with the bullets hitting the boat and killing the fishermen? this makes quite a big difference...
It would be interesting if you find something more detailed on this point because it's the core of the whole story and it should be quite easy to solve: they have weapons, they have the mortal bullets, they have the solution (unless the solution is not what is expected). The fact that two weapons with 5.56 caliber have fired that day and that the same caliber killed two people is simply not enough to hold two foreign soldiers.

Like in any civilized country, I assume Indians will not publicize the 'details' of forensic report of an ongoing investigation without it being first presented in front of the Court of law.

That media report clearly says '2 guns' so I assume: If there were 8 guns recovered from the ship and each gun was fired at some point of their life time, and forensic have no ways to pinpoint the time of firing, then my conclusion is that they have positively matched those 2 guns to the bullets recovered from the dead bodies. Corret me if I m wrong!

Btw, I do not trust the Indian medias nor does the Italian...m waiting for any official statement!

[easyand2]

from what I know (correct me if I'm wrong) indian experts made public the circumference of the bullets (why measuring a bullet with its circumference??) and it corresponds to 7,62 but italian marines on the ship didn't have any 7,62 caliber weapons but only 5,56.

And now they're searching for a "missing weapon", what a coincidence! And they won't find it simply because the weapons carried are listed on official documents and there was no 7,62 machine gun on that ship.

Furthermore, the Times of India says that "forensics evidence did not show a true corrispondence between the weapons tested and the bullets"

[jAwAn!]

from what I know (correct me if I'm wrong) indian experts made public the circumference of the bullets (why measuring a bullet with its circumference??) and it corresponds to 7,62 but italian marines on the ship didn't have any 7,62 caliber weapons but only 5,56.

And now they're searching for a "missing weapon", what a coincidence! And they won't find it simply because the weapons carried are listed on official documents and there was no 7,62 machine gun on that ship.

Furthermore, the Times of India says that "forensics evidence did not show a true corrispondence between the weapons tested and the bullets"

Post the source of that information, then we ll talk about the circumference! By source, I don't mean you quote something out from an Italian tabloid nor ToI.

[DaviDelta]

Like in any civilized country, I assume Indians will not publicize the 'details' of forensic report of an ongoing investigation without it being first presented in front of the Court of law.

That media report clearly says '2 guns' so I assume: If there were 8 guns recovered from the ship and each gun was fired at some point of their life time, and forensic have no ways to pinpoint the time of firing, then my conclusion is that they have positively matched those 2 guns to the bullets recovered from the dead bodies. Corret me if I m wrong!

Btw, I do not trust the Indian medias nor does the Italian...m waiting for any official statement!

I have doubts about not publicizing details of an ongoing investigation, because so far there have been "strategic" indiscretions about the caliber (bouncing from 5.56 to 7.62), about a "ghost" weapon and now about the firing weapons, not counting a politician who already foresees that the marines committed a crime: all this, although unofficial, has the effect of directing public opinion, according to me.
If you assume that that they found the matching with the bullets.. well, case closed, marines are guilty and goodbye. So such an indiscretion is made by some minor local media? I do think that there is a way to determine if a gun has fired in the last couple of months, especially if the other guns have fired a certain number of days before (I guess it's about the quantity of gunpowder, but I am not an expert about the matter). So I assume the news you caught is just about the fact that two guns have fired lately (nothing new about it, we already knew that as it was declared by the marines and written on papers).

[jAwAn!]

I have doubts about not publicizing details of an ongoing investigation, because so far there have been "strategic" indiscretions about the caliber (bouncing from 5.56 to 7.62), about a "ghost" weapon and now about the firing weapons, not counting a politician who already foresees that the marines committed a crime: all this, although unofficial, has the effect of directing public opinion, according to me.
If you assume that that they found the matching with the bullets.. well, case closed, marines are guilty and goodbye. So such an indiscretion is made by some minor local media? I do think that there is a way to determine if a gun has fired in the last couple of months, especially if the other guns have fired a certain number of days before (I guess it's about the quantity of gunpowder, but I am not an expert about the matter). So I assume the news you caught is just about the fact that two guns have fired lately (nothing new about it, we already knew that as it was declared by the marines and written on papers).

The news of "ghost weapon" and "Indiscretions" about the caliber are just a fabrication of the Italian medias. As you rightly said, no government officials from the both sides had made any statements validating those two claims. You think they should publicize the report because it has the effect of directing bad public opinion towards India? Which public? Well then guess what? For every one Italian, we could bring 10 Indians to support our claims...does that mean Justice? Hell NO! Italians have every reason not to trust Indians, so does the Indians. so don't be surprise if they actually go ahead and check the ship again & again & again!

Btw, I have no affiliation with any local medias neither can I validate their claims. My assumption is just a personal opinion out from reading these news, and will not use that as a FACT to point my finger at another 'nation' or 'foreign soldiers' for a wrong doing.

[DaviDelta]

Post the source of that information, then we ll talk about the circumference! By source, I don't mean you quote something out from an Italian tabloid nor ToI.

There are no "tabloids" in Italy reporting this story, there are just newspapers and press agencies, but unfortunately they have to rely on the information released by Indian media and authorities, which are very unclear and contradictory most of the times, except when it's about reporting the same initial theory: "the marines fired, SO they are guilty, we are just searching for at least one serious evidence" (which has not come out yet after 6 weeks, despite the fact of having all the involved suspects/witnesses/weapons/documents/ships available. Correct me if I am wrong). If authorities were honest, they could simply recognize that (having no evidences) the fact happened in international waters and involved foreign soldiers operating officially for their State, which requires the fact to be managed by THAT State (Italy) and not the State the victims belong to (India). All other behaviours are arbitrary. This is what international right says, and not applying this means one thing: dishonest and unfair conduct by Indian authorities managing the case (which does not mean "all Indians").

[jAwAn!]

There are no "tabloids" in Italy reporting this story, there are just newspapers and press agencies, but unfortunately they have to rely on the information released by Indian media and authorities, which are very unclear and contradictory most of the times, except when it's about reporting the same initial theory: "the marines fired, SO they are guilty, we are just searching for at least one serious evidence" (which has not come out yet after 6 weeks, despite the fact of having all the involved suspects/witnesses/weapons/documents/ships available. Correct me if I am wrong). If authorities were honest, they could simply recognize that (having no evidences) the fact happened in international waters and involved foreign soldiers operating officially for their State, which requires the fact to be managed by THAT State (Italy) and not the State the victims belong to (India). All other behaviours are arbitrary. This is what international right says, and not applying this means one thing: dishonest and unfair conduct by Indian authorities managing the case (which does not mean "all Indians").

If you already came to that judgement, then m sorry to say you should grab some more tissues as your marines are there to stay till dishonest and unfair Indian authorities decides to release them free. Like it or not! (no hard feelings)

[ggk]

A local media just reported that: Kerala Ballistic team has positively identified the 2 guns involved in the shooting incident, and they have submitted the report to Kollam Chief Judicial Magistrate Court. This report will eventually be handed over to Kerala Police in coming days.

Source: Manorama Online (Google can't translate the local language 'Malayalam' so does I without some help)

did the italian give their guns for analysis too?

[twinblade]

did the italian give their guns for analysis too?

Yes, collected and tested in presence of Italian authorities.

[DaviDelta]

If you already came to that judgement, then m sorry to say you should grab some more tissues as your marines are there to stay till dishonest and unfair Indian authorities decides to release them free. Like it or not! (no hard feelings)

The judgement is related to the unilateral decision on jurisdiction by India on an event taking place in international waters involving foreign countries without solid evidences, also considering the way they got the ship enter the port ("would you please help us identify some pirates...?").
I wonder how long will the marines stay there without evidences. Any clue about how many times the decision by the court will be delayed? Will it go on forever?

[twinblade]

The judgement is related to the unilateral decision on jurisdiction by India on an event taking place in international waters involving foreign countries without solid evidences, also considering the way they got the ship enter the port ("would you please help us identify some pirates...?").
I wonder how long will the marines stay there without evidences. Any clue about how many times the decision by the court will be delayed? Will it go on forever?

So you are more annoyed over the fact that your sailors are under illegal detention than the fact that they might have actually shot and killed two innocent civilians ?

[sgtfcm]

So you are more annoyed over the fact that your sailors are under illegal detention than the fact that they might have actually shot and killed two innocent civilians ?

I'm annoyed by the FACT that in 2 months, with bodies, bullets and guns available, the investigators did not provide a single proof which could prove them guilty. Plain simple.

[DaviDelta]

The news of "ghost weapon" and "Indiscretions" about the caliber are just a fabrication of the Italian medias. As you rightly said, no government officials from the both sides had made any statements validating those two claims. You think they should publicize the report because it has the effect of directing bad public opinion towards India? Which public? Well then guess what? For every one Italian, we could bring 10 Indians to support our claims...does that mean Justice? Hell NO! Italians have every reason not to trust Indians, so does the Indians. so don't be surprise if they actually go ahead and check the ship again & again & again!
Btw, I have no affiliation with any local medias neither can I validate their claims. My assumption is just a personal opinion out from reading these news, and will not use that as a FACT to point my finger at another 'nation' or 'foreign soldiers' for a wrong doing.

I am sure India has claims, she wants to punish the guilty and have money for compensation, and the guilty who should pay everything has been found since the beginning: Italy and her marines. The rest (evidence and jurisdiction) does not count much apparently.
Italy too has claims: letthe accused soldiers be judged by Italy, as the fact does not fall under India's jurisdiction (and moreover the evidences are not solid at all).

You say Italian media fabrication?
- Indiscretions about the caliber on Indian media:
The police, who are yet to seize the weapons used ..to kill the two fishermen, suspect that rifle they used could be Berretta AR-70/90. The postmortem report has confirmed that the rifle, used for firing around 20 rounds at the trawlers, had a caliber with a 5.56 mm NATO bore. According to a top official, the rifle would be either SOCIMI AR-832/FS Assault Rifle or Italian-made Beretta AR-70/90, SC-70/90/ and SCP-70/90. "We cannot confirm the make of the rifle. But we have identified that 5.56 mm NATO bore caliber was used in it.
http://expressbuzz.com/states/kerala...90/365470.html
- Indiscretions about missing weapon:
The special investigation team (SIT) of Kerala, which is collecting the evidence in the trial for the death of two Indian fishermen are involved in which the maro ‘Massimiliano Salvatore Latorre and Pool” suspected that a the weapons used by the military has yet to be arrested.”
He writes The Times of India front page edition of Kerala,” citing authoritative sources” that” the weapon used by one of maro ‘is not among the seven seized the ship.”
http://theuninews.com/maro-kerala-po...issing-weapon/
It is understood that the police on Tuesday interrogated the two marines following reports that one of the guns used by the marines to fire at the fishermen was missing. This was found during the examination of the weapons conducted at the Forensic Laboratory.
The examination showed a mismatch between the guns seized from the vessel and the bullets received from the bodies of the two Indian fishermen. Media reports quoting police sources said that one of the guns used in the firing was missing from the firearms seized from Enrica Lexie. The report said that the police were of strong suspicion that the marines had used some other gun to fire at the fishermen
http://www.khaleejtimes.com/displaya...rnational&col=

- About the "missing weapon", since the seizure operations there were 8 weapons and officials said they got everything they needed:
Kerala Police team returned to land on early Sunday morning with four suitcases that contatined eight guns, an officer said.
Highly-placed police officials have confirmed that there were six rifles, two snipers and 24 pistols on board. Police, however, seized only the rifles and the snipers.
"The search and seizure operation is now over and we have got what we needed," Kerala police investigating team leader M.R. Ajith Kumar told
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/chann...tle-begins-950
After a 12-hour search on Italian cargo ship "Enrica Lexie", the Kerala Police team returned to land early Sunday morning with four suitcases that contatined eight guns, an officer said.
http://expressbuzz.com/nation/legal-...ng/367237.html
M R Ajith Kumar, who is heading the SIT, said after nearly 14 hours search ended at 2am. Asked about the details of the seized materials, he said “we got whatever we needed”
http://www.asianetindia.com/news/pro...ny_323038.html
(and many other media on 26 february)

But now it seems that instead of 8 guns they seized 7. Or maybe, as the result of the forensics are not as expected, they say that the weapon is not among the seized ones. Yeah, right. End of investigation? No, of course. So you tell me it's no surprise if they keep searching again & again & again the ship even though they had it available during these 6 weeks and they said they got "everthing they needed" since the first search? Should we expect they start searching the entire seabed of the Indian ocean to search for some "killer weapon" thrown at sea?
Oh, sure, italians are already guilty so they should not be trusted as a principle, and search should go on until something is possibly found while a new postponement is done on a regular basis.
I wonder how would you judge this being a neutral observer.