Two fishermen shot dead by Italian ship off Kerala coast

[DaviDelta]

So you are more annoyed over the fact that your sailors are under illegal detention than the fact that they might have actually shot and killed two innocent civilians ?

Twinblade, sure I am annoyed about the fact that our marines are under illegal detention, no doubt about it.
About the possibility (not sustained by proofs so far) that they might have killed two innocent civilians:
1. I am SAD if two innocent civilians have been killed
2. The incident allegedly involving the italian marines (assuming that they really shot and hit the fishing boat with the 2 killed fishermen) took place outside India's jurisdiction, so it's not up to India to judge
3. Even if they accidentally killed the fishermen, it would be a mistake of the State they belong to, as they were operating under official mandate, and they were not playing the cowboys shooting for fun.
So, on the balance we have:
- 2 soldiers spending their time in a foreign country risking up to death sentence (this is what is heard) although no evidence has been demonstrated and many unclear points still have to be cleared out.
- 2 fishermen dead, killed somewhere somewhen, with one witness (out of the 9 available witnesses) who didn't see any ship and didn't read any name (first days declaration, then the story changes) and admits that it was the police telling him that it was Enrica Lexie (so the police tells the witness how it went... hm... strange dynamics)
And let's not forget that Indian authorities deceived the italian ship to enter the port with an excuse (smart move), without informing the captain they were suspected of homicide (this is not a lawful behaviour). Do you think that two killers would really have accepted to steer back into the arms of justice if they really killed someone? Nice fairytale. More realistically, police needed to find some guilty and they had them with a trick.
Please explain: does India put all this effort whenever an innocent fisherman is killed by anyone else who does not comply to collaborate? (eg. Sri Lankan navy/coast guard/fishermen, or other ships who sank fishing boats)? I am curious to find out.

[twinblade]

Hello DaviDelta,

This thread is going around in circles for the last couple of dozen pages so it wouldn't hurt to do the cycle one more time.

The incident allegedly involving the italian marines (assuming that they really shot and hit the fishing boat with the 2 killed fishermen) took place outside India's jurisdiction, so it's not up to India to judge

Actually, under the extra territorial provisions of the Indian law, if a crime is committed on an Indian ship against Indian citizens (irrespective of location), the perpetrators can be tried in Indian courts. Now since India and Italy do not have a "Status of Forces Agreement", the Italian marines, though representing Italy in anti-piracy duty and having diplomatic immunity for their actions under Italian laws, do not have an immunity under Indian laws. Since both Indian and Italian authorities are claiming jurisdiction over the marines, the first one to have them in their custody calls the dibs (which in this case happen to be Indian authorities). The situation with Sri Lankan navy is different because there the Indian fishermen have been found guilty of breaching their territorial waters and all the Indian government can do is to ask them to show "restraint" (use of non lethal measures).

@Sgtfcm
The reason why the court proceedings haven't started because the marines have filed an appeal in the Kerala High court seeking squashing of charges against them, challenging the jurisdiction of Indian courts and authorities in this matter. As of March 27th the High Court has asked them to resubmit their petitions. Till the issue is settled in the High Court, the Sessions court is expected to keep extending the judicial custody keeping in mind the high flight risk of the accused.

Regardless of the High Court ruling on the jurisdiction, the loser will definitely approach the Supreme Court of India (add another couple of months before the beginning of the trial). The sessions court trial might take anywhere between 8 months to 18 months, following which the same amount of time in High Court and Supreme Court if the losers decide to challenge the verdict. There might be a scope of a review application in the supreme court considering the complexity of the case. Trust me, this thread has the potential to run a couple of thousand pages, at least.

[DaviDelta]

Hello DaviDelta,
Trust me, this thread has the potential to run a couple of thousand pages, at least.

Actually it is the real farce that is going round in circles, not the thread, which only reflects things not being done in a serious, thorough and respectful manner.
So, should we give up trying to understand how it can be that all this is going on without any reasonable evidences?
I know that by now Indian authorities can do whatever they want, but I still try to read the facts:
I don't care too much to guess exactly what is going to happen, because I know that I can't really.
But what I am sure of is that something is missing in the puzzle and some pieces are clearly unlikely.
Why doesn't any Indian friend on this thread try to think of some other hypothesis rather than believing that it was the italians to shoot?
I look at facts, and nothing is clear about the fishing boat and the time of the deaths. These are just a few of the unclear points in the story.
I want to submit this to your comments, as an example of possible different "endings" of the whole story.
Today, an italian ballistic expert demonstrated that it is very likely that the bullets killing the fishermen were caliber 7.62mm, so definitely not fired by the weapons of the marines (they have only 5.56mm). Of course this is not official as results have not been officially shown , anyway it is based on the autopsy on the dead bodies (it was read by the italian observers but not copied) where Prof. Sasikala found bullets measuring "24mm circumference", which would correspond to 7.62mm caliber.
The interesting analysis is here:
http://www.seeninside.net/piracy/indexen.html (ballistics section)
Well, having in mind that italian marines only had 5.56mm weapons, who could have shot these bullets? Anyone else, of course. As an example, Sri Lankan arrow boats have PKM 7.62mm machine guns
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_boat
You would say that Sri Lanka is too far from the incident area. Are you sure? The point is: where is the incident area of the St. Antony? who can say that they were 22.5 NM off Allapuzha (as recorded on the alarm message and on the log book of the merchant ship) and not somewhere else? If it happened there, why should the fishing boat, having 2 dead people onboard, sail 40 miles to go to Neendakara instead of 22.5 miles and reach the closest port? What about the timing? 9 fishermen deeply sleeping at 4pm and no one sees anything? Ok, they worked at night, then they all sleep for 8-10 hours since sunrise? Not convincing me.
If we assume that the place and the time related to St. Antony has not been sufficiently proved, we have a big hole in the puzzle. All is certain about the fishing boat is that at 22.45INS it was anchored in Neendakara.
So, let's assume it was a different incident and let's make it happen earlier and closer to Sri Lankan EEZ or even territorial waters: if you look at a map and consider a fishing boat maximum speed (8-10 knots), you will easily see that from 22.45INS backwards, St. Antony could be in Sri Lankan waters/EEZ still the previous night, the fishermen could have been killed with 7.62mm by the arrow boat, then sail at maximum speed to reach Neendakara (about 180NM, less than 24h at 8-10 kts) and arriving there at 22.45INS (why sailing so long with two deads? beacuse they wanted to hide the fact that they were caught in illegal fishing)
I know that it is just an hypothesis, but does it make sense? For sure, as soon as the post-mortem and ballistic exams become official we will find out the caliber and the ballistic signature of the bullets. After that, two threads:
1. the bullets belong to the weapons of the marines > MARINES GUILTY
2. the bullets don't match the italian weapons > WHO KILLED THE FISHERMEN?
In this second case I gave a possible answer.
What is making me crazy is that on Indian media I have access to (english text articles on internet) NOBODY seems even to consider for a spell the possibility that the marines killed the fishermen. How can it be???
I know that I cannot monitor all Indian newspapers, so it's probably not like that (I hope). So, can anyone help and show me that not everybody over there has already judged the marines? Not even a small doubt??

[jAwAn!]

The judgement is related to the unilateral decision on jurisdiction by India on an event taking place in international waters involving foreign countries without solid evidences, also considering the way they got the ship enter the port ("would you please help us identify some pirates...?").
I wonder how long will the marines stay there without evidences. Any clue about how many times the decision by the court will be delayed? Will it go on forever?

If you gonna keep throwing up here in the pretext that Indian government is guilty, that is absolutely fine with me.... at the end of the day we all know Marines will be in Indian Jail till Indian court declares them free! Whether Indian have any jurisdiction is no more a question here. How many times decision by the court will be delayed? Numerous times, well its an Indian court! Will it go on forever? Possibly Yes, well its an Indian court! If you have possible answers to all of your questions...why spend time writing essays here??

Btw, I never accused Italian marines of guilty yet!

What is making me crazy is that on Indian media I have access to (english text articles on internet) NOBODY seems even to consider for a spell the possibility that the marines killed the fishermen. How can it be???
I know that I cannot monitor all Indian newspapers, so it's probably not like that (I hope). So, can anyone help and show me that not everybody over there has already judged the marines? Not even a small doubt??

Do you have any source of an Italian newspaper who consider for a spell the possibility that the marines can be guilty?

[jAwAn!]

But now it seems that instead of 8 guns they seized 7. Or maybe, as the result of the forensics are not as expected, they say that the weapon is not among the seized ones. Yeah, right. End of investigation? No, of course. So you tell me it's no surprise if they keep searching again & again & again the ship even though they had it available during these 6 weeks and they said they got "everthing they needed" since the first search? Should we expect they start searching the entire seabed of the Indian ocean to search for some "killer weapon" thrown at sea?
Oh, sure, italians are already guilty so they should not be trusted as a principle, and search should go on until something is possibly found while a new postponement is done on a regular basis.
I wonder how would you judge this being a neutral observer.

Oops! I missed this one....YES, Indians are already dishonest and unfair so don't be surprise!!!

[DaviDelta]

If you gonna keep throwing up here in the pretext that Indian government is guilty, that is absolutely fine with me....

I said that the authorities who deceived the ship are possibly "guilty" of unfair behaviour and that public statements taking for granted that the marines are guilty are also "guilty" of misleading public opinion

If you have possible answers to all of your questions...why spend time writing essays here??

who said that I am only spending time here? FYI I am not sleeping waiting for the problem to be solved itself, although it all depends on India's reasonable behaviour from an objective point of view (and keeping the marines in judicial custody forever is NOT reasonable, to me)

Do you have any source of an Italian newspaper who consider for a spell the possibility that the marines can be guilty?

Of course there are, but mainly in italian. One for all: written by Giuliana Sgrena, thejournalist who was rescued from by agent Nicola Calipari in Irak in 2005, killed by a US soldier by mistake (FYI the soldier was brought in the US and judged there, eventually without any charge)
http://giulianasgrena.globalist.it/D...isplay?ID=7974
(but it's in italian, you'll have to translate it)

[DaviDelta]

Oops! I missed this one....YES, Indians are already dishonest and unfair so don't be surprise!!!

It was not referred to all Indians, it seems to me that investigations are not conducted in a professional and clear way (italians not admitted to exams, threats to get the soldiers get off the ship, inconsistent witnesses and evidences, "missing weapons", etc)

[jAwAn!]

It was not referred to all Indians, it seems to me that investigations are not conducted in a professional and clear way (italians not admitted to exams, threats to get the soldiers get off the ship, inconsistent witnesses and evidences, "missing weapons", etc)

I partially agrees to your statement that this investigation was a mess from the beginning, but that doesn't mean we gonna put marines in judicial custody forever without proven guilty. WE have two unarmed fishermen dead bodies, and their families are also sleeplessly waiting for a closure. Our judiciary system runs on its own pace, and Italians are not in a position to dictate us on how to conduct our own investigation. If Italians have such a distrust in Indian court system, why even bother to file a petition??

[DaviDelta]

I partially agrees to your statement that this investigation was a mess from the beginning, but that doesn't mean we gonna put marines in judicial custody forever without proven guilty. WE have two unarmed fishermen dead bodies, and their families are also sleeplessly waiting for a closure. Our judiciary system runs on its own pace, and Italians are not in a position to dictate us on how to conduct our own investigation. If Italians have such a distrust in Indian court system, why even bother to file a petition??

I know that Italians cannot dictate anything, in fact we were hoping in a request of collaboration by Indian authorities (just like it was made at the beginning by the coast guard, but only as an excuse). Do you think that Italy on the diplomatic side behaved in a wrong way? Here everybody says that - if the results are that the marines are still there - diplomacy has been way too soft. But then, what else could they do if everything is in Indians' hands? In fact, I think the petition falls in the diplomatic "strategy" (effectless so far).
I really don't understand why there is no collaboration in such a situation, when the marines are not common persons who could fly away and disappear, but serving a State.
If you add the inconsistency of the whole accusation what do you get from an italian perspective? Two soldiers who were there to protect a merchant ship from pirates have been deceived by Indian coast guard, forced to get off the ship like two criminals/mafiosi/trigger happy cowboys, kept in custody for several weeks and even accused of being maintained like guests with lots of state money in "5 stars hotels".. not mentioning all the comments about italian mafia, the vatican, Sonia Ghandi's interests, colonialism, Schettino & Costa Concordia, spaghetti, mandolin and so on. This could be avoided behaving with concrete will of cooperation, which is the key to solve any diplomatic problem.
Can you say that any effort has been made by India? I see only unilateral action which has lead to a process which could take months or years even if the marines end up being totally innocent as facts and behaviours partially demonstrate.
This is crazy to me, sorry, no matter what your judicial system or laws are. It's about common sense, and if this had happened in Italy with Indian soldiers I would think the same thing.

[jAwAn!]

I know that Italians cannot dictate anything, in fact we were hoping in a request of collaboration by Indian authorities (just like it was made at the beginning by the coast guard, but only as an excuse). Do you think that Italy on the diplomatic side behaved in a wrong way? Here everybody says that - if the results are that the marines are still there - diplomacy has been way too soft. But then, what else could they do if everything is in Indians' hands? In fact, I think the petition falls in the diplomatic "strategy" (effectless so far).
I really don't understand why there is no collaboration in such a situation, when the marines are not common persons who could fly away and disappear, but serving a State.
If you add the inconsistency of the whole accusation what do you get from an italian perspective? Two soldiers who were there to protect a merchant ship from pirates have been deceived by Indian coast guard, forced to get off the ship like two criminals/mafiosi/trigger happy cowboys, kept in custody for several weeks and even accused of being maintained like guests with lots of state money in "5 stars hotels".. not mentioning all the comments about italian mafia, the vatican, Sonia Ghandi's interests, colonialism, Schettino & Costa Concordia, spaghetti, mandolin and so on. This could be avoided behaving with concrete will of cooperation, which is the key to solve any diplomatic problem.
Can you say that any effort has been made by India? I see only unilateral action which has lead to a process which could take months or years even if the marines end up being totally innocent as facts and behaviours partially demonstrate.
This is crazy to me, sorry, no matter what your judicial system or laws are. It's about common sense, and if this had happened in Italy with Indian soldiers I would think the same thing.

I know there is a lot of sentimental value to this case, but I hope it won't blindfold you from differentiating what comes out of the State from what comes out of the medias. I wish i could answer some of your questions, but i don't have any insight information about whats going behind the closed doors of Indian government. At the end, I sincerely hope common sense will prevail and justice will serve to the people who have died and people who are in jail now.

[Nirvana]

I know that Italians cannot dictate anything, in fact we were hoping in a request of collaboration by Indian authorities (just like it was made at the beginning by the coast guard, but only as an excuse). Do you think that Italy on the diplomatic side behaved in a wrong way? Here everybody says that - if the results are that the marines are still there - diplomacy has been way too soft. But then, what else could they do if everything is in Indians' hands? In fact, I think the petition falls in the diplomatic "strategy" (effectless so far).
I really don't understand why there is no collaboration in such a situation, when the marines are not common persons who could fly away and disappear, but serving a State.
If you add the inconsistency of the whole accusation what do you get from an italian perspective? Two soldiers who were there to protect a merchant ship from pirates have been deceived by Indian coast guard, forced to get off the ship like two criminals/mafiosi/trigger happy cowboys, kept in custody for several weeks and even accused of being maintained like guests with lots of state money in "5 stars hotels".. not mentioning all the comments about italian mafia, the vatican, Sonia Ghandi's interests, colonialism, Schettino & Costa Concordia, spaghetti, mandolin and so on. This could be avoided behaving with concrete will of cooperation, which is the key to solve any diplomatic problem.
Can you say that any effort has been made by India? I see only unilateral action which has lead to a process which could take months or years even if the marines end up being totally innocent as facts and behaviours partially demonstrate.
This is crazy to me, sorry, no matter what your judicial system or laws are. It's about common sense, and if this had happened in Italy with Indian soldiers I would think the same thing.

Have patience dude... you joining this forum suddenly and writing long boring essays on the same topic which is already discussed and asking same questions again and again with out trying to understand the answers is not gonna help anyone....

Why dont u just have some patience , explore this wonder full forum.. have some opinions on other things... see some wonderful ammunition pics ....Chill out .....and by that time the marines also will be nearer to home.... Cheers !!!!

[syncro]

@DaviDelta stai annoiando tutti con questi stupidi e chilometrici post... piantala che non serve a niente e a nessuno e ti stai solamente rendendo ridicolo

[jAwAn!]

Have patience dude... you joining this forum suddenly and writing long boring essays on the same topic which is already discussed and asking same questions again and again with out trying to understand the answers is not gonna help anyone....

Why dont u just have some patience , explore this wonder full forum.. have some opinions on other things... see some wonderful ammunition pics ....Chill out .....and by that time the marines also will be nearer to home.... Cheers !!!!

x2.n (where n>1)

[DaviDelta]

@DaviDelta stai annoiando tutti con questi stupidi e chilometrici post... piantala che non serve a niente e a nessuno e ti stai solamente rendendo ridicolo

@syncro Complimenti a te invece per la costruttività dei tuoi interventi. Ma chi ti obbliga a leggere quello che non ti interessa e che probabilmente non capisci? E cosa ne sai se serve o no? Un mio amico ti direbbe che sei un coglione

[DaviDelta]

Have patience dude... you joining this forum suddenly and writing long boring essays on the same topic which is already discussed and asking same questions again and again with out trying to understand the answers is not gonna help anyone....

Why dont u just have some patience , explore this wonder full forum.. have some opinions on other things... see some wonderful ammunition pics ....Chill out .....and by that time the marines also will be nearer to home.... Cheers !!!!

I know it's about patience. I wanted to join much earlier but it took time to be approved as a member and I could not intervene when the topic was hot.
Anyway, I am not interested in any other topics at the moment, as I joined this forum only because of this thread.
I thought it could be a place to exchange opinions but it seems it is not (at least jAwAn! seemed to read what I wrote).
You say I wrote the same old questions but I posted also new hints for exploring new aspects, or maybe you are not interested to take in consideration other options than the marines being guilty. Sorry, but being a soldier like them I care about what they are suffering and try to understand how this happened and who really killed the fishermen.
By the way, as it seems I am just boring everyone here I say goodbye to this one-way forum.
Have fun.