Two fishermen shot dead by Italian ship off Kerala coast

[DS73]

I know it's about patience. I wanted to join much earlier but it took time to be approved as a member and I could not intervene when the topic was hot.
Anyway, I am not interested in any other topics at the moment, as I joined this forum only because of this thread.
I thought it could be a place to exchange opinions but it seems it is not (at least jAwAn! seemed to read what I wrote).
You say I wrote the same old questions but I posted also new hints for exploring new aspects, or maybe you are not interested to take in consideration other options than the marines being guilty. Sorry, but being a soldier like them I care about what they are suffering and try to understand how this happened and who really killed the fishermen.
By the way, as it seems I am just boring everyone here I say goodbye to this one-way forum.
Have fun.

The topic of this thread has no coverage in W. Europe. Literally the case is unknown outside of Italy, and your posts indeed provide plenty of information deliberately or not omitted by the indian members who have made most of the posts here.
Other people don't communicate because they don't care, or don't know anything about and have nothing to contribute. Somehow I think the vast majority of readers belong to the second group.

Please keep on and give more information when you find some.

What you've wrote in bold has much more meaning to me, and I am sure not only to me, than all this cave-nationalistic crap pressed by indian members.

[hulaku]

What you've wrote in bold has much more meening to me, and I am sure not only to me, than all this cave-nationalistic crap pressed by indian members.

Oh really, do give us a few examples, Good Sir.

What most Indian members are saying is simply this (I put it in bullet points for ease of understanding)

*Two innocent fishermen were shot dead.

*The Italian guards on the merchant vessel are the main suspects in this unfortunate incident.

*In case the Italians did the shooting it was likely an over-reaction or maybe an accidental shooting.

*The Italians are under court custody and the case in under investigation.

*In India investigations and court procedures take longer than in most Western countries, so people have to be patient.

*Justice will prevail in the end.

Now please tell me which part is cave nationalistic as you point out ?

[DaviDelta]

The topic of this thread has no coverage in W. Europe. Literally the case is unknown outside of Italy, and your posts indeed provide plenty of information deliberately or not omitted by the indian members who have made most of the posts here.
Other people don't communicate because they don't care, or don't know anything about and have nothing to contribute. Somehow I think the vast majority of readers belong to the second group.

Please keep on and give more information when you find some.

What you've wrote in bold has much more meaning to me, and I am sure not only to me, than all this cave-nationalistic crap pressed by indian members.

@DS73 Thanks for explaining how things work here and for supporting my intent, which is to dig in the facts and broaden a little bit the perspective hopefully adding something new or at least to refresh certain aspects.
To tell the truth it's a bit surprising that most of the people in this thread belonging to a forum named "militaryphotos" is taking for granted that two soldiers are guilty when (hopefully) the ballistics results will be the key to eventually tell the truth about the whole story. It sounds more like a political thread in some parts (I did my part too).
I invite once again the members saying I am posting nothing new and just being boring to take a look at the ballistics aspects analysed in this report:
http://www.seeninside.net/piracy/indexen.html
Although the conclusion may not be taken in consideration by certain members, they still may find interesting things about weapons.
If at least you are not considering bs what I write I may too consider not to leave this place, there are a lot of smart guys too.

[DaviDelta]

Oh really, do give us a few examples, Good Sir.

What most Indian members are saying is simply this (I put it in bullet points for ease of understanding)

*Two innocent fishermen were shot dead.
*The Italian guards on the merchant vessel are the main suspects in this unfortunate incident.
*In case the Italians did the shooting it was likely an over-reaction or maybe an accidental shooting.
*The Italians are under court custody and the case in under investigation.
*In India investigations and court procedures take longer than in most Western countries, so people have to be patient.
*Justice will prevail in the end.

Now please tell me which part is cave nationalistic as you point out ?

@hulaku Putting it like that it seems all neutral, but it hasn't been like that and you know. I don't mean you in particular, but I am sure DS73 after taking time to read once again all the long thread will find some examples. I am not saying that Italians didn't behave the same, but as Indians are in an "advantaged" position towards the italian marines, it would have been nice to read at least here differently tasting sentences in some cases (basically: they shot-they are guilty-they will pay.. they are like guests... we pay for their food.. now they are in India and they will face Indian law.. ). Sorry but all this really sounds like nationalistic bs.
I know I have thrown a bunch of words and I haven't quoted, but if you go through some posts you will find such topics, and DS73 can do the same.
As I said, I was expecting more analytical points on the facts rather than such so-to-speak topics.
I asked if anyone can find some other analysis on Indian media, and if we could try a different perspective on the matter to try figure out how things went, but I had no answers and was accused of being boring. I see that political/nationalistic topics have more impact rather than more concrete subjects.

[twinblade]

Why doesn't any Indian friend on this thread try to think of some other hypothesis rather than believing that it was the italians to shoot?

1. It was due to the report filed with the Indian Coastal police authority, that the MRCC launched the hunt for a ship matching the description of Enrica Lexie.
2. As per the Indian Coast Guard, the Italians informed the MRCC 2.5 hours after the incident and 70 Km onward their original path, that too when contacted by the Indian Coast guard.

So the Italians have shot in the general direction of a vessel and a vessel has got shot, strictest adherence to the protocols was not followed and an eye witness description of a vessel similar to Enrica Lexie. That is a very strong probable cause for launching an investigation.

You would say that Sri Lanka is too far from the incident area. Are you sure?

Yes I am sure, take a look at this map. The big red point on the map is where most of the incidents with Sri Lankan Navy happen. Take a look at the scale and try to estimate the distance up to Allapuzha.

The point is: where is the incident area of the St. Antony? who can say that they were 22.5 NM off Allapuzha (as recorded on the alarm message and on the log book of the merchant ship) and not somewhere else? If it happened there, why should the fishing boat, having 2 dead people onboard, sail 40 miles to go to Neendakara instead of 22.5 miles and reach the closest port?

February is the time for North Eastern monsoon, it is quicker to sail a wee bit south than to the geographically nearest port.

What about the timing? 9 fishermen deeply sleeping at 4pm and no one sees anything? Ok, they worked at night, then they all sleep for 8-10 hours since sunrise? Not convincing me.

Whats so unusual about a Mallu's siesta ?

So, let's assume it was a different incident and let's make it happen earlier and closer to Sri Lankan EEZ or even territorial waters: if you look at a map and consider a fishing boat maximum speed (8-10 knots), you will easily see that from 22.45INS backwards, St. Antony could be in Sri Lankan waters/EEZ still the previous night, the fishermen could have been killed with 7.62mm by the arrow boat, then sail at maximum speed to reach Neendakara (about 180NM, less than 24h at 8-10 kts) and arriving there at 22.45INS (why sailing so long with two deads? beacuse they wanted to hide the fact that they were caught in illegal fishing)

For your hypothesis to be true, two things need to happen
a. A pirate attack at a place which has rarely seen any piracy (Alleppuzha).
b. An Indian boat travelling 200 knots from Alleppuzha (which would still leave it barely 100 km from Kanya Kumari and still within Indian EEZ) getting attacked by Sri Lankan navy boat and the worst of all "trying to hide it". For one, Indian boats rarely "hide" the fact that they were transgressing into Lankan waters and two, Lankan Navy wouldn't be hanging around a 100 Km off Kanya Kumari.

I know that it is just an hypothesis, but does it make sense?

No.

What is making me crazy is that on Indian media I have access to (english text articles on internet) NOBODY seems even to consider for a spell the possibility that the marines killed the fishermen. How can it be??? I know that I cannot monitor all Indian newspapers, so it's probably not like that (I hope). So, can anyone help and show me that not everybody over there has already judged the marines? Not even a small doubt??

They are biased, crude and sensationalist, they always report what the authorities have to say if they can't find anything contrary to it, they will always confirm to the Indian interpretation of extra territorial provisions and every news article treats accused as criminals till proven otherwise (in which case it becomes the fault of law enforcement agencies for letting off a "criminal"). On the other hand I find the Italian media stressing on the legality of Indian action (as they interpret it based on Italian laws) unsettling. Best solution, develop a thick skin. If you need anything to reassure yourself, the only thing I can offer is that the best of our agencies have a conviction rate of 60%, so even if the marines are guilty, they have a 40% chance of getting freed.

[Darklord]

Normally, I won't give much credence to a ToI report, but I have seen similar articles in language dailies. I am just reporting what I read. The report hasn't been read in court nor released officially. So till such time....

In the report, the FSL authorities stated that weapons have been identified as the ones used to shoot at the fishermen. Various tests conducted at the FSL, including the forensic examination and test firing of the rifles yielded positive results. The files collected from the fishing boat too matched with the Beretta rifles that were seized from the vessel Enrica Lexie.

http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Defau...&ViewMode=HTML

I hope the Italians are also satisfied with the results considering their experts had been present as observers in the FSL.

[twinblade]

Normally, I won't give much credence to a ToI report, but I have seen similar articles in language dailies. I am just reporting what I read. The report hasn't been read in court nor released officially. So till such time....


http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Defau...&ViewMode=HTML

I hope the Italians are also satisfied with the results considering their experts had been present as observers in the FSL.

Seems legit, lets wait for a few more details.

[DaviDelta]

@twinblade At last someone who gives me some feedback! Thank you!

I have quickly read your answers to my questions, and I will point out some things that you have caught partially when I have some more time.
For now, quickly:
1. There is a whole unclear story about the search for the ship matching Enrica Lexie's description: which, FYI, has NEVER been indicated by the only witness speaking, Freddy, as the ship the shoots were coming from, unless in the last interviews he has changed his version for the fourth time; he said that THE POLICE told him that it was the Enrica Lexie shooting. The description you talk about (red-black hull with white superstructures) matches all the other ships tracked on MRCC/CG radars, because it is the standard description for any merchant vessel (oilers in particular). The ships who were challenged by the Coast Guard ("did you shoot anyone?") were: Ocean Breeze (red-black & white), MBA Giovanni (red-black & white), Kamome Victoria (red-black & white). What is strange is that there were other ships in the area which were not challenged at all, and you know what? one of them was the Olympic Flair (red-black & white), greek flagged, who was at anchor off Kochi and declared an attempted pirate attack the same day. This ship was not even challenged!
Take a look here:
http://www.icc-ccs.org/piracy-report.../details/71/69
I can expand on this if you want
2. I will provide documents and quotes about the alarm mandatory actions when a pirate attack is faced (it was not obligatory to inform Indian authorities, as the fact happened in international waters, but the UKMTO based in Dubai (UAE), as per the BMP4 directs. It could have been done if it was considered a certain pirate attack, but it was not in the end. I can expand on this if you want.
3. I was not referring to Palk Strait (of course I have taken a look at the charts and the facts with Sri Lanka, and I have 10 years experience onboard warships), I was possibly considering the closest limit of the Srilankan EEZ, which is less than 200 miles from Neendakara (170-180 nautical miles, less than one day even for a slow fishing boat)
(see map below)
And of course i have more answers to each of your topics, quickly:
4. a fishing boat is not a sailing ship, so i have doubts that choosing a port distant 40 nautical miles (Neendakara) is preferable to any port 20 miles closest. Moreover, that day (ship's log book) the wind was blowing from North-East at only 7-10 knots speed, so it would have not been a big advantage sailing South-East instead of East; and the sea was coming from North-East too, so the fishing boat would have taken waves from its port side, making it very uncomfortable to sail. So, a somehow strange decision to stay 2-3 more hours at sea if you have dead people onboard. Does it make sense now?
I can expand on this if you want.
5. it's not a "siesta" which is strange, it is strange that on 11 fishermen, at 4pm, 9 were deeply sleeping and only one (the owner, Freddy), was awaked and possibly saw an enormous ship without being able to describe it (in the first interviews, not afterwards when everybody could see on tv the Enrica Lexie in Kochi on tv). What is even stranger is that, so far, only Freddy has spoken to media about the incident. I really hope you can correct me, because I am seeking for other fishermen declarations but I had no results.
6a. pirates (armed robbery, not somalian pirates) attacks off Kochi have already happened, it is the Indian area more endangered as per statistics and IMB annual "Piracy and Armed Robbery report". As I wrote there was even a report of an attack the same day, in the evening, and Indian Coast guard was informed, but it was not declared at all!
I have a full detailed statistics on this subject if you want, I can expand as you like. I just point out that an "alleged pirate attack" doesn't necessarily mean "a somali pirate attack" (although recently somali pirates have been reported closer to Indian west coast, in the Maldives area), but it could simply be "armed robbery" carried out even by indian criminals.
6b. If a fishing boat plans to stay "3 weeks at sea" (as declared) they can go faraway, especially if they are tuna fisheermen and tuna fishing areas are ANYWHERE ELSE but west of Neendakara, as FAO reports say. All the tuna fishing areas are southwards, so going fishing faraway south having 3 weeks would make sense, or not? According to me, Sri Lankan Navy has no reason to let everybody know they killed two more fishermen (maybe because of the ongoing attempts to solve officially the problem between the two states?), especially if the guilty have been found and most of all because normally (from what I have seen relating to other incidents) it is mainly Indian media highlighting the facts (I guess based on police or coast guard information). So it would be no surprise if srilankan killed without telling anyone (it would sound a bit crazy, at least to me). Almost as crazy as the fact that two professionally trained marines (operating for a nation which historically never had trigger-happy soldiers) killed by mistake two poor fishermen. Don't you agree?
What is also important on this point is that, if we assume that the killing was possibly made by srilankans, these unclear points would be better explained:
- the ballistic trajectories (parallel to sea surface, not from the top)
- the possible caliber reported as 7.62mm in the autopsy (arrow boats have this caliber, italian marines don't)
- the precision of the mortal shots (head and chest)
8. thank you for explaining things about media, it is difficult to have a clean and objective idea from abroad.

I eventually haven't been so quick, but I guess I supported my previous points.
I would be glad to have more feedback by you on these points:
- geographical hypothesis
- "srilankan theory"
- witnesses
- coastguard/police behaviour
On this last topic, I would ask all Indians here if they think there is a small possibility that the killing was accidentally provoked by a police patrol boat, instead (it's not a nationalistic delirium, just a possibility which would explain certain unclear behaviours and the intial deceiving)

I think these considerations would help trying to understand the facts much better than it has been done so far on media.
P.S. To all those who find my topics boring: PLEASE DON'T READ, I don't need your "contribution"

[DaviDelta]

Seems legit, lets wait for a few more details.

Yes, let's wait for more details, such as the caliber which is not even mentioned.
Of course the forensics is key to the whole story, but until there are no official results we can only make hypotheses and try to understand with logics

[DaviDelta]

I hope the Italians are also satisfied with the results considering their experts had been present as observers in the FSL.

@Darklord: I think that this one sounds close to that "cave nationalism" thing DS73 was talking about.
Yes, italians are satisfied!! of course!!

[DaviDelta]

Sri Lankan EEZ:
http://projects.csg.uwaterloo.ca/inw...ay.php?ID=5581

[DaviDelta]

Normally, I won't give much credence to a ToI report, but I have seen similar articles in language dailies. I am just reporting what I read. The report hasn't been read in court nor released officially. So till such time....
http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Defau...&ViewMode=HTML

It would be very useful if you could update us with other information as you find it, if the news is true, the case is closed.

[DaviDelta]

There seems to be no news following, so I guess the news was not so reliable. It doesn't even report the caliber.
Is it holiday on monday in India?

[Darklord]

The SIT, headed by City Police Commissioner, Kochi, M.R. Ajith Kumar, got a copy of the report by the State Forensic Science Laboratory (FSL) on Monday, which confirmed that weapons involved in the assault were two Berretta ARX 160s, used by the Italian San Marco Regiment. Under an agreement with the Italian government and commercial vessel operators, marines are posted onboard tanker vessels to ward off pirate attacks.

Given the international ramifications of the case, the search, seizure, and ballistic examination were all done in the presence of experts from the Italian armed forces.

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper...cle3298809.ece

CNN-IBN
MSN
Deccan Herald
Indian Express

[jAwAn!]

I kindly ask Indian fellows NOT to go on to punch nails on them till an (any) "Official" statement(s) comes out.