It is funny how the Beretta ARX 160 are NOT used by italian VPDs and in fact they were not seized from the ship because the only weapons onboard were the Beretta AR 70/90 and the FN Minimi.
Also, the presence as "observers" of the italian experts doesn't guarantee anything, because they can not participate in the exams.
I bet that it will all be posponed to the end of may and until then we will only have "unofficial" statements...
Exactly. No credibility at all. On board of Enrica Lexie they only have Beretta 70/90 and Minimi . No ARX160, they've been tested in 2009 but never adopted. Dunno how to take these unofficial statements then ...
Here below I attach an article token from the site 'www.congedatifolgore.it', for those who doesn't read Italian, here the points they focus on are:
1: that theraren't any ARX beretta on board as San Marco rgt doesn't equip the marines with that weapon
2: that is not clear why was declared on March the 3rd that the caliber on the killer weapon was 7,62 and then retired and the ballistic test of few days ago didn't reported the caliber but just the 'line' (sorry I don't know how to traslate) on the bullets.
Let's see how this situation will evolve, actually I'm just happy for the Italian man liberated by the maoists.
BRUTTO SEGNALE DI SCARSA PROFESSIONALITA' INDIANA: DICHIARANO CHE A SPARARE SINO STATI DUE ARX60 BERETTA. MA A BORDO DELLA LEXIE NON CI SONO MAI STATI
Mercoledì, 11 Aprile 2012 by webmaster
PARMA.- Le indiscrezioni gioralistiche affermano che l'esito delle indagini balistiche avrebbe identificato nei fucili Beretta Arx-160 le armi compatibili con le loro indagini.
Le indagini sno state condotte oltre ai sei fucili Beretta, anche sulle due FN Minimi. Fonti interne al team di periti indiani hanno precisato che il *******o sui test di tiro, sulla balistica e sulle im****te digitali sono state consegnate al magistrato.
L aloro certezza deriva dall'esame dei proiettili recuperati dai cadaveri delle vittime. Sulla base delle "im****te" lasciate dalel armi , sembra che abbiano stabilito che sono compatibili con le rigature delle canne di due fucili.
L'aspetto più strano delle certezze mostrate dal responsabile del dipartimento di balistica di Trivandrum riguarda il tipo di arma. Gli ARX-160 sono fucili d'assalto assegnati per valutazioni ad alcuni reparti tra i quali, ad esempio. foprze specioali e paracadutisti della Folgore e il Reggimento San Marco che ne ha alcuni per la sperimentazione ma non li ha ancora adottati.
La Marina militare aveva a bordo i fucili Beretta AR 70/90, mentre conferma di non avere mai fornito in dotazione gli ARX-160 ai team di protezione navale , quindi nemmeno da quello imbarcato sulla petroliera Enrica Lexie.
Gli inquirenti indiani hanno sequestrato sei AR-70/90 e due mitragliatrici Minimi e non ARX-160.
Le armi potrebbero utilizzare le stesse munizioni e gli stessi caricatori, tuttavia ma è singolare che gli "esperti" indiani indichino come arma del delitto un tipo di fucile che secondo la Marina non era presente sulla nave o non sappiano riconoscere un'arma dall'altra considerate le vistose differenze di forma, dimensioni e peso.
INTERVIENE IL PERITO BALISTICO DE STEFANO
L’identificazione dei due fucili Beretta è stata possibile dopo il raffronto tra le rigature individuate sui proiettili estratti dai corpi dei due pescatori e quelle delle armi in dotazione ai marò Massimiliano Latorre e Salvatore Girone, incarcerati. Per Luigi Di Stefano, perito di lungo corso, in passato al lavoro anche sulla vicenda di Ustica, si tratta di «un’incredibile faciloneria». «La prima cosa da dire è quale sia il calibro, non la rigatura, quella è secondaria. E le autorità indiane - rileva - adesso non dicono nulla del calibro, mentre il 3 marzo scorso avevano indicato un calibro misura 7,62». La stranezza, sottolinea Di Stefano, è che «il calibro 7,62 per 54r è di un fucile sovietico, tra l’altro in dotazione alla guardia costiera dello Sri Lanka. Mentre il calibro in dotazione alle forze Nato - continua - è 5,56 per 45. Questo punto - aggiunge - non è mai stato spiegato. Oggi persone che dovrebbero essere “esperte” non dicono una parola sul calibro ma sulla rigatura che, ripeto, è del tutto secondaria: non fornisce nessuna prova». In sintesi, dice infine, «senza la misura del calibro si dicono solo stranezze, può significare tutto». Intanto la Corte Suprema indiana ha ammesso il ricorso presentato dagli avvocati degli armatori dell’Enrica Lexie contro il verdetto dell’Alta Corte di Kerala che vieta dalla nave italiana di partire. I giudici della Corte Suprema hanno chiesto alle autorità del Kerala e del ministero della marina mercantile di comparire ed hanno così aggiornato l’udienza, secondo quanto si legge sul sito di «Times of India». L’avvocato KK Venugopal ha argomentato il ricorso sostenendo che la nave non ha nulla a che vedere con l’incidente che ha portato alla morte dei due pescatori indiani il 14 febbraio scorso in cui sono coinvolti i due marò che - ha argomentato ancora il legale - sono già in custodia della polizia, come lo sono le armi sequestrate.
As there will probably be no news on the Indian side until the end of may (not counting indiscretions), I ask Indian members of this blog what they think about this:
- 2 months (easily 3 months after the High Court ends the holidays) have gone and the marines are still stuck there with no certain evidence collected or proved
- 2 months with all the weapons seized and available for any kind of test in this world but still no official results at all
- the only available information on the ballistic aspects are some indiscretions which report that the caliber may be either 7,62mm or 5,56mm fired by Beretta ARX-160, in both cases weapons NOT used by the italian marines
- the very slow ballistic tests on one side, while a very big effort was put by the Police/Coast Guard/Navy to catch the "willing to cooperate" italian ship that day, even using a trick, while the other potential "killer ships" (at least 4) were not persecuted/chased at all: Ocean Breeze, Kamome Victoria, MBA Giovanni were simply asked on the radio "if they accidentally shoot someone" and then easily let go,while Olympic Flair which was actually attacked by armed robbers was not even challenged on the radio and the information was kept hidden for days
Now, can our Indian friends tell me, without any polemical intent from my side, what they really think about this? I mean, not counting that "every country has its procedures and timing" and that it's normal that months go by before any decision is taken: don't you think that this situation is simply not credible from the beginning and just becoming more and more paradoxical? It would be nice to see if honest italians and indians (without any political or economical interests) can at least simply agree on this.
Last edited by DaviDelta; 04-18-2012 at 05:07 AM.
Dark Lord those are the plain news. what is your analysis?
I would add :
The news have been reported on all the major italian magazines with a curious side story:they claim that the new sunday express published a picture of Chief Massimiliano Latorre saving an AP photographer Mr Aijaz Rahi before getting ran over by a car with the title "massimiliano latorre a hero". I googled it but I could only find the italian news, no reference on indian newspapers.
Now, we are back to square one. If you browse through this thread I anticipated the worst scenario: italians will now say "it was all about the money" and indians will appeal to conspiracy theories with central government involvement, mafia, aliens, etc etc. Until few days ago, everybody stick to the rigor of indian courts and police investigations.
On my side I'm not happy either. No official statements or reports regarding the ballistics, just rumours. This leads me thinking they don't have anything in their hands. Italian Governmente preferred to make a "donation" of $400.000 to pacify the families and bring the marines home. leaving their honour in India though. They will come back from a service door with a smear. Indians will think they were guilty and that Sonia Gandhi let them slip away. Families got the dough. But do the lives of fishermen really worth just $400.000 ? In my opinion, NO. KP had 2 months to produce undeniable evidences to frame them but nobody saw that. If they let them slip, it's a mistake. If they tried to frame them it's also a mistake and they kept innocent men detained for over 2 months for nothing.
One thing's for sure, for what matters : the italian GP perception of India and indians got really worse. The opinion on our own government was already down the drain but I hate to see all the attacks I regularly read on indian nationals because of this incident. Oh well, the commercial relationships and big investments are safe though. So sad.
Only the civil case; ie, the families' case for compensation in wrongful death; is getting dropped. The criminal case continues.
Enrica Lexie case: Victims kin drop charges
In criminal cases, the state is the plaintiff.The state government’s criminal case against the Italian marines would be unaffected by the withdrawal of the petition by the kin of the deceased.
Yep, of course. But how about the acceptance of italian jurisdiction? That's what I've read on italian and indian newspapers. Are they really moving the case to Italy?
Never heard anything like that. You have two cases pending to quash the FIR, one before the Kerala High Court (set aside for ruling) and one in SC, which you have reported in #487. If Supreme Court rules in your favour, you have jurisdiction; if not, we have jurisdiction. Anyway, KP is moving to file chargesheet and Comm. Kumar has said they have a matching ballistic report.
http://www.ndtv.com/article/south/fi...on-case-203211Kochi: The owner of a boat, on which two fishermen were killed by Italian marines in February, has withdrawn the compensation case after receiving Rs. 17 lakh as damages from the Italian government. Freddy, owner of the fishing boat St Antony, also reportedly gave an undertaking to Italian authorities stating that he "pardons the marines in the name of God."
In the name of God, I wonder what Rs. 17 lakh can make a difference....Kochi: The owner of a boat, on which two fishermen were killed by Italian marines in February, has withdrawn the compensation case after receiving Rs. 17 lakh as damages from the Italian government. Freddy, owner of the fishing boat St Antony, also reportedly gave an undertaking to Italian authorities stating that he "pardons the marines in the name of God."
Kerala fishermen's killing: Out-of-court settlement impermissible, Supreme Court says
Earlier during the two-hour-long argument, the apex court questioned the Kerala government as to why it did not oppose the compromise reached between the families of the deceased fishermen and the Italian vessel's owners, who reportedly paid Rs one crore to each victim's family.http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/12937103.cmsReferring to the compromise, the apex court bench said, "This is a challenge to the Indian judicial system, this is impermissible. It is most unfortunate."