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Thread: Alenia Aermacchi M-346 won the Israeli competetion

  1. #46

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    As usual ... I would to try to explain
    I am not questioning about italian economic difficulties.. i am questioning about exagerations

    I was referring to those who write about supposed problems with compensations.


    Anyway only a counsel: try to find out other sources .... Moody's !!!
    The same who guaranted an A1 to Freddie Mac until 22 August 2008?

  2. #47
    Senior Member Camera's Avatar
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    It is the first time Israel buys European jets since the French embargo in 1967.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheeleuss View Post
    Anyway only a counsel: try to find out other sources .... Moody's !!!
    The same who guaranted an A1 to Freddie Mac until 22 August 2008?
    Cute denial. Regardless of Moody's past misjudgments in other issues, specific to Italy's case it's saying the right thing. Removed from the Israeli trainer competition there is no exaggeration or nonsense about Italy's fundamental and well-known economic problems and their possible effects on future defense industrial cooperations being proposed by anyone here. And perhaps you are misreading what Universal_Soldier meant in response to Ren789's suggestion of geopolitical influence in the Israeli deal because of Iran. Try reading it more closely, what he actually means is that Italy doesn't actually hold a lot of diplomatic advantage over Korea in Israel due to fundamental Iran foreign policy issues. Korea is just more economically dependent on Iran, but at the same time Italy wasn't very wholeheartedly supportive of economically isolating Iran either (in large part because of, quite precisely, its economic problems that may be aggravated by Iran sanctions). Just how do you logically connect the M-346 purchase with a 'compensation' for Iran sanctions in his post?

  4. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambassador View Post
    Cute denial. Regardless of Moody's past misjudgments in other issues, specific to Italy's case it's saying the right thing. Removed from the Israeli trainer competition there is no exaggeration or nonsense about Italy's fundamental and well-known economic problems and their possible effects on future defense industrial cooperations being proposed by anyone here. And perhaps you are misreading what Universal_Soldier meant in response to Ren789's suggestion of geopolitical influence in the Israeli deal because of Iran. Try reading it more closely, what he actually means is that Italy doesn't actually hold a lot of diplomatic advantage over Korea in Israel due to fundamental Iran foreign policy issues. Korea is just more economically dependent on Iran, but at the same time Italy wasn't very wholeheartedly supportive of economically isolating Iran either (in large part because of, quite precisely, its economic problems that may be aggravated by Iran sanctions). Just how do you logically connect the M-346 purchase with a 'compensation' for Iran sanctions in his post?
    It seems you are one of the few follower of rating agencies remained! Good for you.

    Anyway: I was replying to two different post. I thought it was clear enough. I was not replynig to your post. As I said you sometime ago I do not really care about yoour posts. Make me a favor : do not care of mine.

    And moreover what does it mean "cute denial" .... you should stop making insinuations about what others write .

  5. #50
    Senior Member frenchy's Avatar
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    Are those planes coming "empty" in order to let israelis put their own electronics or with italian electronics too ? Although it's just a training plane and not a fighter one.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheeleuss View Post
    It seems you are one of the few follower of rating agencies remained! Good for you.

    Anyway: I was replying to two different post. I thought it was clear enough. I was not replynig to your post. As I said you sometime ago I do not really care about yoour posts. Make me a favor : do not care of mine.

    And moreover what does it mean "cute denial" .... you should stop making insinuations about what others write .
    I chose to reply because I'd been bothered by your appalling lack of reading comprehension of what others write. You should stop insinuate others of saying what they didn't. No one is trying to prove that M-346 won the deal as compensation to Iran sanctions, especially not U_S. He actually said contrary things.

    I don't follow Moody's rating and I hardly care about the number of A's rating agencies give out (just who cares if Italy has two and we have only one? ), but for allegedly 'poor' financial analysts their words drive home the lump analysis of Italy's economy surprisingly well. It's performing a lot poorer than many of its comparables, quite rightly due to its fundamental, rather than circumstantial defects. It even supports the theory that Italy had to be self-protectively hesitant about the Iran sanctions. You are still free to try to prove that Italy's not a PIGS though, and that these economic problems don't matter to defense. But that's not a subject worth entertaining for me anymore. I'm just telling that the few of us who've been, have been talking a lot of common sense about Italy's economy with a lot of basis on facts (if you don't like Moody, find other financial analysts and the facts will remain the same about Italy's economy). So you quit with your nonsense and insinuation.

  7. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambassador View Post
    I chose to reply because I'd been bothered by your appalling lack of reading comprehension of what others write. You should stop insinuate others of saying what they didn't. No one is trying to prove that M-346 won the deal as compensation to Iran sanctions, especially not U_S. He actually said contrary things.

    I don't follow Moody's rating and I hardly care about the number of A's rating agencies give out (just who cares if Italy has two and we have only one? ), but for allegedly 'poor' financial analysts their words drive home the lump analysis of Italy's economy surprisingly well. It's performing a lot poorer than many of its comparables, quite rightly due to its fundamental, rather than circumstantial defects. It even supports the theory that Italy had to be self-protectively hesitant about the Iran sanctions. You are still free to try to prove that Italy's not a PIGS though, and that these economic problems don't matter to defense. But that's not a subject worth entertaining for me anymore. I'm just telling that the few of us who've been, have been talking a lot of common sense about Italy's economy with a lot of basis on facts (if you don't like Moody, find other financial analysts and the facts will remain the same about Italy's economy). So you quit with your nonsense and insinuation.
    AS usual your only argumentation in the end is : "no no you do so!"
    Anyway this is my last reply to your post. Please stop rpl mine. Thanks! and Please stop chattering about "fundamentals"! (any idea what are speaking about?)

    About PIGS: they are very smart animals, contrary to some human!

  8. #53
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    Heading to Work


    [*******#555555]Revealed: Initial details regarding the developing agreement after the Ministry of Defense chose the Italian aircraft as the IAF's new trainer[/COLOR]
    [*******#888888]
    Arie Egozi


    (…)

    IsraelDefense learned that according to the agreement, the Israeli company Tur, which is jointly owned by IAI and Elbit Systems, will not procure the aircraft, but will only fund the procurement at a value of approximately $600 million.

    In return, the IAF will procure flight services from Tur for 20 years. Since the aircraft is equipped with a US engine and US systems, these will be procured by the Israeli government directly from the US with US foreign aid funds. This procurement will amount to approximately $350 million.

    The Israeli defense industries are expressing disappointment with the way in which the competition against South Korea, the second competitor, was managed. "The competition could have been managed differently. It started well, and then headed in a bad direction," said a source close to the issue.

    http://www.israeldefense.com/?Catego...&ArticleID=940





    [/COLOR]

  9. #54
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    [SIZE=2]Doubt Mounts Over Italian-Israeli Trainer Deal[/SIZE]


    [LEFT][*******#2C2C2C][FONT=Helvetica]TEL AVIV and ROME — Myriad unresolved funding details are casting doubt in Israel over the ability of Italy and Israel to carry out an ambitious $2 billion defense trade deal announced last month by Israel.[/FONT][/COLOR][*******#2C2C2C][FONT=Helvetica]Under a memorandum of agreement between the two countries, Israel would buy $1 billion worth of Italian M-346 jet trainers while Italy would compensate Israel with $1 billion in offsets, which sources later confirmed would include two Israeli early warning aircraft and an Israeli spy satellite.[/FONT][/COLOR][*******#2C2C2C][FONT=Helvetica]However, Israeli government and industry sources insist that Italy must provide some $500 million in private-sector financing as a prerequisite for Israel’s trainer purchase.[/FONT][/COLOR][*******#2C2C2C][FONT=Helvetica]Similarly, Israeli sources say the 30-aircraft trainer buy is contingent on Rome’s near-term funding for the $1 billion in pledged offsets to Israeli industry.
    [/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    ....................
    full article @link below
    http://www.defensenews.com/article/2...i-Trainer-Deal

  10. #55
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    Have It While Flying Without It


    [*******#555555]
    The IAF’s new trainer aircraft will be equipped with a system that will allow the pilot to receive radar data without actually being equipped with radar
    [/COLOR]
    [*******#888888]Arie Egozi

    [/COLOR]Italy’s M-346 trainer aircraft, which has been chosen to serve as the IAF’s next advanced trainer aircraft, will be equipped with the VMTS system produced by Elbit Systems.

    The system will allow pilots undergoing training to obtain radar data on the cockpit screens, without the plane actually having been equipped with a radar system.

    The VMTS system simulates the radar of a fighter aircraft by way of special software, creating a complex radar image displayed on the cockpit's screen, in addition to data concerning threats and weapon systems. The activities of the aircraft's Electronic Warfare (EW) systems are also visible on the screen, all without the systems being present onboard.

    The presentation of the on-screen data can be controlled via an internal software, or by way of "injecting" them from the ground via a data channel.

    Elbit Systems was chosen in 2008 to supply the VMTS to the US Navy’s T-45 trainer aircraft. The supply of the systems is still underway.

    Elbit and Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) have jointly established a company, TOR, which will operate the Italian aircraft on behalf of the IAF.

    Elbit’s virtual training systems are among the most advanced systems in the world, allowing flight cadets to experience the use of numerous systems installed onboard fighter aircraft.

    The system allows cadets to reach an advanced operational training phase with an aircraft unequipped with various systems that presently exist onboard all modern fighters.
    [*******#888888][/COLOR][*******#888888]
    http://www.israeldefense.com/?Catego...ArticleID=1149


    [/COLOR]

  11. #56
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    The potential Israeli assembly of the IAF's new trainer aircraft is being examined. Contacts are underway with the manufacturer of the Italian M-346 aircraft for the final acquisition agreement

    http://www.israeldefense.com/?Catego...ArticleID=1236

  12. #57
    Suspended for infractions Flamming_Python's Avatar
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    Good to see Israel buying Russian

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostdog View Post
    Which is nothing but the M-346 version for the Russian market ...
    hahaha LOL

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by EITAN88 View Post
    The potential Israeli assembly of the IAF's new trainer aircraft is being examined. Contacts are underway with the manufacturer of the Italian M-346 aircraft for the final acquisition agreement

    http://www.israeldefense.com/?Catego...ArticleID=1236
    Hmmm, opening a line for 30 planes? seems like a waste of money, unless it'll serve for more contracts then just the IAF one.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papenheims View Post
    [SIZE=2]Doubt Mounts Over Italian-Israeli Trainer Deal[/SIZE]



    full article @link below
    http://www.defensenews.com/article/20120305/DEFREG01/303050002/Doubt-Mounts-Over-Italian-Israeli-Trainer-Deal
    If you look at the outcome of the competition in the UAE thatb the Italians won and signed an agreement for 48 M-346 and then when the Italian government did not stand by its promisses of offset and the agreement was cancelled and, the situation in Greece with the C-27 that only 8 aircraft were delivered instead of 12, the 4 remaining cancelled by the Greek Air Force, the Italians promissed hundreds of millions in offset and reached a mere $10 million that the Israeli deal is very far from becoming a reality!!

  15. #60
    Senior Member ghostdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamming_Python View Post
    Good to see Israel buying Russian


    hahaha LOL
    So get a culture

    [*******#000000][FONT=sans-serif]In [/FONT][/COLOR]1993[*******#000000][FONT=sans-serif], Aermacchi signed an agreement to partner with Yakovlev on the new trainer the firm had been developing since 1991 for the [/FONT][/COLOR]Russian Air Force[*******#000000][FONT=sans-serif]. The resulting aircraft first flew in [/FONT][/COLOR]1996[*******#000000][FONT=sans-serif] and was brought to [/FONT][/COLOR]Italy[*******#000000][FONT=sans-serif] the following year to substitute the aging MB-339. At the time, the aircraft was marketed as the [/FONT][/COLOR]Yak/AEM-130[*******#000000][FONT=sans-serif], however, by [/FONT][/COLOR]2000[*******#000000][FONT=sans-serif], [SIZE=3]differences in priorities between the two firms brought about an end to the partnership, with each developing the aircraft independently, with Aermacchi retaining worldwide marketing rights except for [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][SIZE=3]Russia[*******#000000][FONT=sans-serif] and the other [/FONT][/COLOR]CIS[*******#000000][FONT=sans-serif] nations. A Russian version is also being pursued by Yakovlev and Sokol, under a different time schedule.
    [/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3][*******#000000][FONT=sans-serif]The M-346 is a highly modified version of the aircraft the joint venture was producing, and uses equipment exclusively from Western manufacturers. [/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE]
    source



    Quote Originally Posted by Flamming_Python View Post
    Good to see Israel buying Italian
    Now you can LOL

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