No, it wasn't. What kind of weird point of view is this? Stop trolling and start with some arguments.
Originally Posted by Smok
Justice is when you prosecute somebody. It wasn't the case there. So it wasn't justice (at least no in modern definition of it, after that if you want to rely on the tribal/clanic definition of the beginning of humanity of "eye for an eye", that's up to you)
Was it a crime ?. By nowadays standards (in our countries) it was.
Was it explainable and justifiable at that moment ? : of course it was and you won't see me shed a single tear for those SS butchers that had a deserved fate
But please have you use of word straight and correct.....
L O L A
For most of those killed probably yes but there's a chance they got one or two clerks, cooks, medics or whatever and some deserters/stragglers who just happened to be around.
Originally Posted by Smok
And some of the wounded in the Hospital who had no connection to the KL also were killed out of hand. There's an interesting interview with a wounded one armed Waffen-SS NCO who was in the hospital that day. He had just been assigned to the hospital after being wounded fighting in the east.
Originally Posted by JCR
I also once found a page on a US 42ID Patrol that came across a wandering Waffen-SS patrol the next day and shot them all not too far away from Dachau.(I believe it was in After the Battle Magazine Issue. 27). It was the sigrunes that became their deathwarrant after the Americans took Dachau.
I would closely read that particular website and it's supplemental pages. While being very informative about holocaust camps and sites like the holocaust museum and anne frank's house - it has a subtle apologist and denial subtext. He especially likes to caption all photos of dachau prisoners as either communists/criminals and makes a special point of saying the platoon cmdr of the 45th Div who's men machine gunned the lined up SS POWs was an American Indian like somehow his non white background had to do with his savage hatred of the Germans and that because the 45th was from Arizona and had many Native Americans in its ranks was why it committed numerous war crimes. The shooting was investigated and there are apparently different witness accounts as to why the gunner opened fire and how many were actually killed. That website likes to emphasize they were mainly wounded SS troops from a hospital not associated with Dachau etc. He also praises German technology and ingenuity while describing the holocaust...draw your own conclusions I guess. Just saying I noticed it...
Originally Posted by LineDoggie
Dachau IIRC was Originally for Political Prisoners of the State to include Communists, Trade Unionists, Social Democrats, Liberals, etc later Jews Catholics, Poles, etc. At the time of Liberation the biggest bloc was Poles. The one badge visible is an inverted red triangle with P for Pole on an Inmate.
Originally Posted by abcusmc
I have no doubt whatsoever that G.I.'s shot some of the SS out of hand the Guards and the Waffen-SS wearing the same insignia surely did not help the woundeds case
Youhouh, "memoirs as documents" again? When this sh&t is going to stop???
Originally Posted by LineDoggie
11 armored division from 30 December till 3 january captured 411 germans (verified), killed 769 (estimated).
Estimated means over-claim usually.
1:2 ratio for fierce fighting against panzer grenadiers is bad?
If to follow what you imply, there was no fighting at all, the germans were just giving up to the ival aamericaans, and those 400 happen to be alive because americans' simply have got tired of shooting.... I am too lazy digging green books now, but I am sure it's not difficult to dig numbers about shot and miraculously revived germans captured by the 26th infantry division. Obviously they won't be 0 even though 26th believed to fight against 5th Parachute Division.
After the war there was serious investigation instigated by Ike about alleged POW shootings. The obvious culprits were identified. They were Screaming Eagles, another division (I don't remember which, I think not 82), and a couple of the smaller unites of Patton 3th Army (parts of 26? 80? Damn paper crap). In all regiments where it was proven to happen, there was indeed hate instigation and unofficial officers' commands to kill "everybody". That is it. Anything else are just assumptions which won't fit reality, in which officers were running after prisoners because POW number was always a good measure of professional qualities and the source of medals. In which soldiers were risking their life to take POWs or for aforementioned reasons or because of specific warrior pride.
Last edited by DS73; 02-17-2012 at 09:14 PM.
I would say that is largely perfectly said.... Legally I think it makes it no more correct to do so just because someone else did it first..
Originally Posted by BLUE THOR
That said I'd argue that it does make for mitigating circumstances or such..
A few things I would just throw in, not as justification to anything but I guess as factors that should be considered:
German Air Tactics often had the bombing of Civilian targets as a part of its land operations, causing chaos in hubs of enemy transport and communication, causing refugees to block routes for Military Forces and largely in support of it.. German Aircraft were infact Tactical Aviation, I think it was the Allies who largely invested in and developed Strategic Bombers whose main purpose was not in support of the ground but in destroying large areas of Civil Works (Factories, Plants, Infrastructure etc), Whilst this in itself does not necessarily mean anything I think it does suggest something of intents and well to me atleast shows the Allies were well prepared to bomb civilian areas to achieve the goals they had in mind..
The whole battle of Britain being a tactical battle at first until its shift to civilian targets (and the luftwaffe being largely unequipped for it) is probably one of the more debated topics (as to whom first INTENTIONALLY dropped bombs on a civilian target during this battle). Other bombing raids are probably more clearly identifiable..
I think overall though looking at Bombing Raids must always be kept in context of the times and the limited means with which to do things that was available, Bombing accuracy requiring large numbers of bombers to strike targets, navigational accuracy meaning sometimes aircraft were way off target and lastly the limited means to hit at the enemy in other ways..
To me personally and I tend to be rather Cynical about it all, I think its largely because of the disparity in most of todays conflicts that we wage which allows them to be comparatively 'clean', its not about how 'civilized' we are but that we are not utterly desperate to win, our people and our homes are seldom being burned to the ground, our husbands, sons, fathers being drafted daily to go to the killing fields and our wives, daughters and mothers fleeing across the steppes, hills, suburbs.. Were that the case more often I think we'd soon see how far we'd be like many of our former enemies
That countries were prepared to Nuclear Strike each others Cities says a lot about how far we were willing to go to 'win', argue it how you will but I think we havent changed that much, we just seldom receive a beat down
Another question I would ask on topic is has anyone read the Book D-Day by Anthony Beevor? If I remember correctly (not read it) it does mention quite abit more on allied war crimes during the drive from D-Day to Berlin, I think I even remember Beevor himself saying that it was far less glamorous and morally clear than we like to think, with orders even coming down from senior allied officers to take no prisoners on the first days of the landings..
In the end I think time and time again throughout all Wars it soon becomes apparent that things we may consider 'abhorent' soon become 'acceptable' so as to win the only varying factors being how much we 'need' to win (Eg: Losing say The Falklands War is far less important than say WW2 or such so less justification) and the other factor being how hard it is for us to win fighting 'clean'..
Originally Posted by Einhander