Page 7 of 12 FirstFirst 123456789101112 LastLast
Results 91 to 105 of 180

Thread: Canada's welfare state starts to implode as demographic realities come home to roost

  1. #91
    the internet is serious business! Ought Six's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Here, but not all there
    Posts
    21,019

    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by Monty1985 View Post
    The real problem with the NHS is the population has outgrown it and was never intended to cope with such a large population. Labour is being labour and will not back anything government will do, capping the amount non working families can claim in benefits is another very good example which is a slap in the face to the working poor of this country.
    The NHS needs reform, without it the level of care will drop. It also needs to expand to cope with the rise in population, it however does not mean its being sold off in to private hands.
    The government does not have and will not have the money to pay for the current level of care for the growing number of elderly and poor immigrants, regardless of any reforms that might be made. That is the harsh reality.

  2. #92
    the internet is serious business! Ought Six's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Here, but not all there
    Posts
    21,019

    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisker View Post
    Ok, went through the thread again. In post 31, if I understand correctly, you want a fully privatized insurance market. How is that very different from the US system?
    I listed a whole bunch of suggested changes in the system. If you cannot grasp that, then I guess further conversation is pointless.
    ----------
    OT: Look! I've made 3 posts without calling anybody an *******/ignorant, whatever... Chill out.
    Since you quit being an *******, I stopped pointing the fact out. I call them as I see them. Deal with it.

  3. #93
    the internet is serious business! Ought Six's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Here, but not all there
    Posts
    21,019

    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by CG51 View Post
    He is an insufferable idiot. Don't waste your time.
    Yeah, when you have no valid counterarguments to make, this is a good face-saving strategy.

  4. #94
    the internet is serious business! Ought Six's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Here, but not all there
    Posts
    21,019

    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by gaijinsamurai View Post
    I'm not an expert on Sweden, but my impression is that like Japan (which also has tax-payer subsidized health care), the overwhelming majority of the population works and contributes towards the system, and the amount of people who leech off it are miniscule. Also in Japan, people tend to make wise lifestyle choices: illegal drugs are rare, and people tend to eat sensibly.

    As a result, heavy taxpayer subsidization of healthcare has been successful in Sweden and Japan.

    However, it's different in the US, where we have a lot of people who simply want to lay around and be parasites. I work in a hospital, where I see ER patients arriving on a hourly basis, due to their lifestyle choices: heavy drug use, alcoholism, and junk food/fast food diets.

    I have no problem with the government using my tax dollars with assisting those who are in temporary constraints and need a helping hand to get on their feet. During the approximate two years I was working for near-minimum wage, and had four mouths to feed, my kids were on government-funded health insurance, and I was grateful for the help. But I resent having to enable people who simply have no desire to do what it takes to survive and prosper on their own, and I think that in our society, a system like yours in Sweden or that in Japan would simply not work.
    This is a valid point. Their systems will survive longer because of their ethical societal dynamic. But in the end, the demographics still make their systems unsupportable in the long run. As I already pointed out, Sweden is spending a hideous percentage of their GDP to support their welfare state already, and the drain on the system from an aging population and an influx of poor, unskilled immigrants is just beginning. The cuts, reforms, and eventual collapse of the system are coming there as well not too far down the road .

  5. #95
    the internet is serious business! Ought Six's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Here, but not all there
    Posts
    21,019

    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by Corrupt View Post
    I think most people would agree that the US has different needs to Europe (and that most European countries have different needs to each other) and that there is no universally superior system. Countries should pursue a system which provides the best balance of quality, access to and cost of care for them. Imho, the NHS works for us in Britain. Leaper seems satisfied with his system in Sweden. You raised some good points about why a similar government run/funded system possibly would no work in the US.

    Now if we could just get Ought Six to stop trying dictate to us about things he has no experience of, we might have a chance at a productive, insightful exchange of views.

    Personally, having grown up with the NHS, which is entirely tax funded and free at point of use, I would be very much against any kind of privatisation. To me, there is nothing that can replace the peace of mind that I will get the care I need, should I require it, even if I'm flat broke. I'd definitely be against an almost entirely private system like the US has, especially given that it seems to cost more, without providing universal coverage (which to me is one of the key pillars of a health system)

    Table nicked from an old BBC article
    Universal healthcare coverage is the dream of all welfare states. The problem is that with an aging population, lots of unskilled immigrants and few skilled, higher-wage workers, it is simply not financially possible. But I expect you and others like you to remain in denial about this and refuse to do the math, proclaiming that just the right 'reforms' can fix everything, and everyone can have their cake and eat it, too. Unfortunately, ugly reality is the slayer of beautiful dreams.

  6. #96
    the internet is serious business! Ought Six's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Here, but not all there
    Posts
    21,019

    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by Clayton Gold View Post
    This is just an anti-Obama thread disguised to be something else.
    Nope. It is an anti-welfare state thread not disguised in any way. I would be just as much against Obamacare if Ronald Reagan had proposed it, just as I was dead-set against the Medicare prescription drug benefit that George Bush rammed through Congress.
    ----------
    However, Ought Six is correct in that our demographics are going to catch up with us if we do not take action soon. Everything else is a load of uninformed crap.
    Many are going to have to learn this the hard way.
    ----------
    The solution is to get rid of the "only public" mandate, and allow some private medicine to operate as well. Quebec is already doing this, and I suspect other provinces will follow suit. Stephen Harper has publicly spoken of this, and is trying to bring this discussion into the mainstream regarding Canadian health care.
    It sounds like you have fallen into the trap of believing that with just the right reforms, a government-managed universal healthcare system can be preserved. Another self-deluded one.
    ----------
    We don't need some ideological wanker like Ought Six to tell us how it ought to be. You have your own mess to clean up. We're doing just fine, thanks.
    It does not matter what you think, or what I think. The reality is that welfare states cannot be sustained with an aging demographic. It is just that simple. As you said, the rest is crap.

  7. #97
    the internet is serious business! Ought Six's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Here, but not all there
    Posts
    21,019

    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by Sashko View Post
    Capping doctor's pay to reasonable 200-250/year instead of current half a mil will go a long way towards preserving free healthcare. No way a family physician deserves to pocket half a million dollars a year, it just perpetuates an unsustainable system where 9 out of 10 doctors are in it for the money. System also has a lot of fat that could be trimmed, such as hordes of beuracracy apparatchiks.

    Capping welfare same as unemployment (6-12 months) will probably create a budget surplus. In Toronto there are whole ghettos where people haven't worked a day in their lives, some even don't bother to learn English.
    That is a fantastic way to drive doctors out of the country, and dramatically reduce the number of people willing to go through the grind of medical school, internship and residency. But wage caps and other ham-handed government regulation always works better than a free market, right? And no, we do not have a free market in American healthcare, or anything remotely close to it.

  8. #98
    the internet is serious business! Ought Six's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Here, but not all there
    Posts
    21,019

    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by valtrex View Post
    Infant mortality rate:
    Greece 38th (5.16), US 46th (6.26)

    Maternal mortality ratio (per 100,000 live births), 2008
    (Greece > 20, US 20-99)
    [IMG]http://i42.*******.com/2589pfn.png[/IMG]
    Diphtheria-tet****-toxoid and perussis (DTP3) immunization coverage among 1-year-olds:
    Greece--> 99%
    US--> 95%
    Source: WHO

    If you really think that the Greek problem is due to the universal health care, you are either very naive, or dense.
    A significant part of the Greek debt problem is obviously social spending. That is undeniable.

    So far as mortality rates, the primary factor in low American mortality rates is in no way, shape or form poor healthcare. Any mother giving birth can go the hospital and they have to admit them. The biggest problem is high rates of drug addiction. Crack and meth babies do not do well. That being said, one of the problems in American healthcare is an inadequate focus on preventive medicine, including prenatal care. That is nowhere near as big a problem as drug addicts having babies, but it is a problem. That is already changing in the private sector. Health insurance providers are finally getting a clue, and realizing that good preventive care is far cheaper than problems during and after birth.

  9. #99
    the internet is serious business! Ought Six's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Here, but not all there
    Posts
    21,019

    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by Meatwad View Post
    Yeah our healthcare system is 100x preferred to what the US has, but thanks for the concern Ought Six. It would be political suicide for the Conservative govt to annouce or make any major changes. Canadians would rather make cuts to anything, and I do mean anything over free healthcare.

    It's stupid things like cutting the CPP to buy F-35's which don't really suit our needs that piss us off.
    Like I keep saying, I expect just about all of you to remain in denial, refuse to do the math and cling to your welfare state tenaciously until it crumbles within your desperate clutches. A sense of entitlement is an incredibly difficult thing to let go of.

  10. #100
    Senior Member Meatwad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Canada New Jersey
    Posts
    2,479

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ought Six View Post
    Like I keep saying, I expect just about all of you to remain in denial, refuse to do the math and cling to your welfare state tenaciously until it crumbles within your desperate clutches.

    Yeah we sure are crumbling and we are in denial. All because we are for higher taxes so we can cover our old and sick.

    Look the reality is that things here are pretty good. The world economy is in a rough spot we are one of the western nations lucky enough to be doing well with a good outlook. Even if things really hit the ****ter in the global marketplace we are again one of the nations lucky enough with our geography and resources to be completely self sufficient with major changes of course. Who else but us can sustain our way of living by ourselves? Russia and Brazil maybe. Our demographic situation remains good.

  11. #101
    the internet is serious business! Ought Six's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Here, but not all there
    Posts
    21,019

    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by Meatwad View Post
    Our demographic situation remains good.
    Still in denial.
    ---

    Is Old Age Security truly unsustainable?
    A federal government actuarial report on the OAS program released in June, from the office of the chief actuary, revealed some of the projected costs of the program and raised some future concerns about its viability.

    The report found that demographic changes will "have a major impact" on the ratio of the number of workers for every retiree. That ratio, currently around 4.4 workers to every retiree, will drop to 2.2 workers in 2050, a demographic shift that would decrease the tax base pool.
    Yeah, you are going to have a lot more elderly living longer while making more demands on the system, the usual rapidly increasing medical costs, and half as many workers actually paying for the system. But there is no demographic crisis. Ignore the math. All is well. Go back to sleep.

  12. #102
    Senior Member HK in AK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    quis custodiet ipsos custodes
    Age
    48
    Posts
    5,905

    Default

    Of course we could all be like Russia and have negative population growth.

  13. #103

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HK in AK View Post
    Of course we could all be like Russia and have negative population growth.
    Most will when they bear the full fruits of socialism.

  14. #104
    Senior Member Meatwad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Canada New Jersey
    Posts
    2,479

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ought Six View Post
    Still in denial.
    Again the scope is narrow. This is just a side effect of a population boom that happened decades ago, and it will happen again. You know that baby boomers are going to still be taken care of, and guess what? Once they pass on the number of elderly in care will drop once the next generations in life step in. That is the nature of our demographic situation. It is a much better situation than having decades of a consistant population boom and having a huge population base to take care of.
    Our problems will only come down to tweaking the budget to balance it out, and it will be done by cuts across the board and perhaps increased taxes. These cuts have happened before by the way under Paul Martin, and we still have our free health care

    It's not going to be easy but it has to be done, and many will take pride in that.

  15. #105
    Senior Member Meatwad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Canada New Jersey
    Posts
    2,479

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HK in AK View Post
    Of course we could all be like Russia and have negative population growth.
    This is actually a blessing in disguise considering global trends. The individual quality of life sharply increases with more space and more opportunities arise for individuals to do what they want. These things are cyclic in nature anyways.

    The way our global population has sharply risen could lead to potential catastrophe for countries that have a huge populations.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •