Canada's welfare state starts to implode as demographic realities come home to roost

[gaijinsamurai]

What a analytic, well formulated and to-the-point response, even if I don't agree with you. And you didn't use the word as*hole even once.

Are you not on the wrong forum?

Lol! I'm fairly immature, but make an attempt to act like an adult when discussing political differences.

[Fisker]

Lol! I'm fairly immature, but make an attempt to act like an adult when discussing political differences.

SHHH! Quiet!

[Ought Six]

You're a fiscal conservative.

.... and a social liberal on most social issues. But I am against speech codes and political correctness, so I am socially conservative on those issues. But I am against waging war gratuitously on other nations, so I am a military liberal. And I am against what is ridiculously called 'free trade', so I am a trade conservative. Or perhaps, as I said, I am just a libertarian.

[Ought Six]

The US healthcare system is not without it's flaws. But some ppeople tend to overlook that it does have its pros as well. It has some of the fastest treatment times for ER throughout and absolutely the top notch system in the world of you can afford the treatment. Canada has a brain drain of doctors to the US for this reason.

If we can drive a stake through the heart of the abomination called 'Obamacare' so it never rises again, the challenge will be to reform our system in a way that keeps the government out of it, brings competition back into a free healthcare market, lowers costs, enables and supports private charities, and greatly improves accessibility to healthcare for low-income people. I think it is doable. But universal healthcare subsidized by the taxpayer is not.

[Ought Six]

Actually to a degree, yes. The Royal Colleges hold a lot of power and ensure doctors get a cushy deal. For example they limit the number of medical school places a year to ensure there are no unemployed doctors and keep wages high. To date, no government has really dared take them on. It's exactly the same situation with barristers.

Wow, that sucks! That kind of corrupt partnership between professional orgs and government really distorts the market. I hope one day your nation can end that.
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The overwhelming majority are NHS doctors, so yes they are government employees.

It seems the socialism in the system is even worse than I thought. I knew the hospitals were government-operated with government-employed doctors, but I thought the GPs would be private practitioners.
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You've backtracked from "The Brits are desperately trying to privatise"

And I provided material to back it up, which you dismissed out of hand. You are trying to derail a thread about the troubles of the Canadian healthcare system and similar systems, and change the entire thread subject to a single passing comment I made. Good luck with that. However, I will not be participating in that threadjack attempt.

[Ought Six]

The real problem with the NHS is the population has outgrown it and was never intended to cope with such a large population. Labour is being labour and will not back anything government will do, capping the amount non working families can claim in benefits is another very good example which is a slap in the face to the working poor of this country.
The NHS needs reform, without it the level of care will drop. It also needs to expand to cope with the rise in population, it however does not mean its being sold off in to private hands.

The government does not have and will not have the money to pay for the current level of care for the growing number of elderly and poor immigrants, regardless of any reforms that might be made. That is the harsh reality.

[Ought Six]

Ok, went through the thread again. In post 31, if I understand correctly, you want a fully privatized insurance market. How is that very different from the US system?

I listed a whole bunch of suggested changes in the system. If you cannot grasp that, then I guess further conversation is pointless.
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OT: Look! I've made 3 posts without calling anybody an asshole/ignorant, whatever... Chill out.

Since you quit being an asshole, I stopped pointing the fact out. I call them as I see them. Deal with it.

[Ought Six]

He is an insufferable idiot. Don't waste your time.

Yeah, when you have no valid counterarguments to make, this is a good face-saving strategy.

[Ought Six]

I'm not an expert on Sweden, but my impression is that like Japan (which also has tax-payer subsidized health care), the overwhelming majority of the population works and contributes towards the system, and the amount of people who leech off it are miniscule. Also in Japan, people tend to make wise lifestyle choices: illegal drugs are rare, and people tend to eat sensibly.

As a result, heavy taxpayer subsidization of healthcare has been successful in Sweden and Japan.

However, it's different in the US, where we have a lot of people who simply want to lay around and be parasites. I work in a hospital, where I see ER patients arriving on a hourly basis, due to their lifestyle choices: heavy drug use, alcoholism, and junk food/fast food diets.

I have no problem with the government using my tax dollars with assisting those who are in temporary constraints and need a helping hand to get on their feet. During the approximate two years I was working for near-minimum wage, and had four mouths to feed, my kids were on government-funded health insurance, and I was grateful for the help. But I resent having to enable people who simply have no desire to do what it takes to survive and prosper on their own, and I think that in our society, a system like yours in Sweden or that in Japan would simply not work.

This is a valid point. Their systems will survive longer because of their ethical societal dynamic. But in the end, the demographics still make their systems unsupportable in the long run. As I already pointed out, Sweden is spending a hideous percentage of their GDP to support their welfare state already, and the drain on the system from an aging population and an influx of poor, unskilled immigrants is just beginning. The cuts, reforms, and eventual collapse of the system are coming there as well not too far down the road .

[Ought Six]

I think most people would agree that the US has different needs to Europe (and that most European countries have different needs to each other) and that there is no universally superior system. Countries should pursue a system which provides the best balance of quality, access to and cost of care for them. Imho, the NHS works for us in Britain. Leaper seems satisfied with his system in Sweden. You raised some good points about why a similar government run/funded system possibly would no work in the US.

Now if we could just get Ought Six to stop trying dictate to us about things he has no experience of, we might have a chance at a productive, insightful exchange of views.

Personally, having grown up with the NHS, which is entirely tax funded and free at point of use, I would be very much against any kind of privatisation. To me, there is nothing that can replace the peace of mind that I will get the care I need, should I require it, even if I'm flat broke. I'd definitely be against an almost entirely private system like the US has, especially given that it seems to cost more, without providing universal coverage (which to me is one of the key pillars of a health system)

Table nicked from an old BBC article

Universal healthcare coverage is the dream of all welfare states. The problem is that with an aging population, lots of unskilled immigrants and few skilled, higher-wage workers, it is simply not financially possible. But I expect you and others like you to remain in denial about this and refuse to do the math, proclaiming that just the right 'reforms' can fix everything, and everyone can have their cake and eat it, too. Unfortunately, ugly reality is the slayer of beautiful dreams.

[Ought Six]

This is just an anti-Obama thread disguised to be something else.

Nope. It is an anti-welfare state thread not disguised in any way. I would be just as much against Obamacare if Ronald Reagan had proposed it, just as I was dead-set against the Medicare prescription drug benefit that George Bush rammed through Congress.
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However, Ought Six is correct in that our demographics are going to catch up with us if we do not take action soon. Everything else is a load of uninformed crap.

Many are going to have to learn this the hard way.
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The solution is to get rid of the "only public" mandate, and allow some private medicine to operate as well. Quebec is already doing this, and I suspect other provinces will follow suit. Stephen Harper has publicly spoken of this, and is trying to bring this discussion into the mainstream regarding Canadian health care.

It sounds like you have fallen into the trap of believing that with just the right reforms, a government-managed universal healthcare system can be preserved. Another self-deluded one.
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We don't need some ideological wanker like Ought Six to tell us how it ought to be. You have your own mess to clean up. We're doing just fine, thanks.

It does not matter what you think, or what I think. The reality is that welfare states cannot be sustained with an aging demographic. It is just that simple. As you said, the rest is crap.

[Ought Six]

Capping doctor's pay to reasonable 200-250/year instead of current half a mil will go a long way towards preserving free healthcare. No way a family physician deserves to pocket half a million dollars a year, it just perpetuates an unsustainable system where 9 out of 10 doctors are in it for the money. System also has a lot of fat that could be trimmed, such as hordes of beuracracy apparatchiks.

Capping welfare same as unemployment (6-12 months) will probably create a budget surplus. In Toronto there are whole ghettos where people haven't worked a day in their lives, some even don't bother to learn English.

That is a fantastic way to drive doctors out of the country, and dramatically reduce the number of people willing to go through the grind of medical school, internship and residency. But wage caps and other ham-handed government regulation always works better than a free market, right? And no, we do not have a free market in American healthcare, or anything remotely close to it.

[Ought Six]

Infant mortality rate:
Greece 38th (5.16), US 46th (6.26)

Maternal mortality ratio (per 100,000 live births), 2008
(Greece > 20, US 20-99)

Diphtheria-tet****-toxoid and perussis (DTP3) immunization coverage among 1-year-olds:
Greece--> 99%
US--> 95%
Source: WHO

If you really think that the Greek problem is due to the universal health care, you are either very naive, or dense.

A significant part of the Greek debt problem is obviously social spending. That is undeniable.

So far as mortality rates, the primary factor in low American mortality rates is in no way, shape or form poor healthcare. Any mother giving birth can go the hospital and they have to admit them. The biggest problem is high rates of drug addiction. Crack and meth babies do not do well. That being said, one of the problems in American healthcare is an inadequate focus on preventive medicine, including prenatal care. That is nowhere near as big a problem as drug addicts having babies, but it is a problem. That is already changing in the private sector. Health insurance providers are finally getting a clue, and realizing that good preventive care is far cheaper than problems during and after birth.

[Ought Six]

Yeah our healthcare system is 100x preferred to what the US has, but thanks for the concern Ought Six. It would be political suicide for the Conservative govt to annouce or make any major changes. Canadians would rather make cuts to anything, and I do mean anything over free healthcare.

It's stupid things like cutting the CPP to buy F-35's which don't really suit our needs that piss us off.

Like I keep saying, I expect just about all of you to remain in denial, refuse to do the math and cling to your welfare state tenaciously until it crumbles within your desperate clutches. A sense of entitlement is an incredibly difficult thing to let go of.

[Meatwad]

Like I keep saying, I expect just about all of you to remain in denial, refuse to do the math and cling to your welfare state tenaciously until it crumbles within your desperate clutches.

Yeah we sure are crumbling and we are in denial. All because we are for higher taxes so we can cover our old and sick.

Look the reality is that things here are pretty good. The world economy is in a rough spot we are one of the western nations lucky enough to be doing well with a good outlook. Even if things really hit the ****ter in the global marketplace we are again one of the nations lucky enough with our geography and resources to be completely self sufficient with major changes of course. Who else but us can sustain our way of living by ourselves? Russia and Brazil maybe. Our demographic situation remains good.