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Thread: Canada's welfare state starts to implode as demographic realities come home to roost

  1. #166
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    Talked to my Canadian friends. So far they have not seen any implosions or explosions. Soon we will have crazy oil money and Obama will kiss OUR ruler's hand

  2. #167
    Pining for a custom title PEMM's Avatar
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    EDIT: Never mind actually.
    Last edited by PEMM; 02-24-2012 at 05:21 PM.

  3. #168
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    www.economist.com/node/4085945?Story_ID=4085945

    Atleast its more sustainable than certian other systems.

  4. #169
    the internet is serious business! Ought Six's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HellToupee View Post
    www.economist.com/node/4085945?Story_ID=4085945

    Atleast its more sustainable than certian other systems.
    As I already pointed out, much of the 'spending' in the American system is really just tax breaks, not cash outlays. That is not the case in other nations, and that skews the relative percentages. But none of these systems will be sustainable, so the differences are not very important.

  5. #170
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    A tax credit costs just like a subsidy would plus its not like the US is the only nation in the world employing them all these systems have different costs some burdened with the cost of extending services to all their citizens for example. As for sustainability what system is sustainable? Our entire economies,population growth and energy usage all falls under unsustainable, and like all those a system that can provide what is provided now yet some how is sustainable has never existed.

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by HellToupee View Post
    A tax credit costs just like a subsidy would....
    I said tax breaks, not tax credits. Being able to deduct $x off of your taxable income is in no way the same as an $x tax credit. The former may or may not lower the amount of tax you actually pay a little. The latter is deducted, dollar for dollar, from the amount of tax you pay.
    ----------
    .... plus its not like the US is the only nation in the world employing them
    Name the other nations that offer tax breaks for healthcare.
    ----------
    all these systems have different costs some burdened with the cost of extending services to all their citizens for example.
    Not sure what your point is here.
    ----------
    As for sustainability what system is sustainable?
    Countries with stable demographics, low inflation and limited government generally have sustainable systems. Nations where their politicians grant ever-growing benefits to demographically aging populations do not.
    ----------
    Our entire economies,population growth and energy usage all falls under unsustainable, and like all those a system that can provide what is provided now yet some how is sustainable has never existed.
    I am not quite sure what that sentence means.

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ought Six View Post
    I said tax breaks, not tax credits. Being able to deduct $x off of your taxable income is in no way the same as an $x tax credit. The former may or may not lower the amount of tax you actually pay a little. The latter is deducted, dollar for dollar, from the amount of tax you pay.
    A tax credit is a tax break, it is a reduction or refund in the amount of taxes to pay, what you are mistaking for a tax credit is a tax deduction which is another form of tax break. Tax break is a general term.
    ----------Name the other nations that offer tax breaks for healthcare.
    Canada is one of them.
    ----------Not sure what your point is here.
    Your excusing US stats with "tax breaks", as if the systems compared against are carbon copies of each other and don't have their own additional costs measured, like the cost of universal coverage for example.
    ----------Countries with stable demographics, low inflation and limited government generally have sustainable systems. Nations where their politicians grant ever-growing benefits to demographically aging populations do not.
    Which countries would these be?
    ----------I am not quite sure what that sentence means.
    Why its quite simple, if you want to talk sustainable healthcare you have to first talk sustainable economy healtcare public or private is only as sustianable as the economy, economies require growth aka your demographic problem when the population growth slows, growth itself is unsustainable.

  8. #173
    Senior Member Breakfast in Vegas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leaper View Post
    The global economy crisis I say.
    The current U.S healthcare system is better? Please give me a break.
    Free healthcare should be mandatory in any western nation. Period
    I pay about $800/month for my free German healthcare.

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leaper View Post
    The global economy crisis I say. The current U.S healthcare system is better? Please give me a break. Free healthcare should be mandatory in any western nation. Period
    There is no such thing as 'free' health care. There is socialized health care. It's paid for by all taxpayers with an emphasis on employers (as a benefit for workers) For anybody who has to pay a hospital bill in any civilized country on earth that's a lot better than selling a couple of kids into bondage, begging for charity or just 'skipping the medecine' and easing the population crisis. Some people really don't like line-ups or having to wait for an operation (although my B-in-law had his quadruple bypass one day after he complained to his doctor), I had to wait a month for an aortic aneurism patch, but there's nothing to stop them mortgaging the house and going to a more 'reasonable' place where money talks. Rich guys do that all the time. Maybe that's why they think its so unfair that they have to 'pay for somebody else'. There are doctors who think they could make a lot more collecting bits of jewelry and garden vegetables in return for treatment. They, too, are welcome to go where they'll be more justly rewarded. I wouldn't let any 'expat' or non-taxpayer into a Canadian hospital 'free'. Canadians aren't as stupid as our politicos. Our medicare plan is best thing we've done as a nation. I think we're going to keep it. It sure beats getting one medical bill. With all due respect, given the choice, I think most Canadians would forgo the military budget.

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by HellToupee View Post
    A tax credit is a tax break, it is a reduction or refund in the amount of taxes to pay, what you are mistaking for a tax credit is a tax deduction which is another form of tax break.
    The American system gives you lots of deductions, which the false accounting we see in comparisons like the Wikipedia one counts as if they were tax credits.
    ----------
    Tax break is a general term.
    Whatever.
    ----------
    Canada is one of them.Your excusing US stats with "tax breaks", as if the systems compared against are carbon copies of each other....
    The point that I was making is precisely the opposite of what you are claiming; that they are not carbon copies of each other, and thus cannot be directly compared with any accuracy.
    ----------
    .... and don't have their own additional costs measured, like the cost of universal coverage for example.
    Not a clue what you are trying to say here.
    ----------
    Which countries would these be?
    One example is Panama, which I have been investigating as a possible retirement location. There are many others.
    ----------
    Why its quite simple, if you want to talk sustainable healthcare you have to first talk sustainable economy healtcare public or private is only as sustianable as the economy, economies require growth aka your demographic problem when the population growth slows, growth itself is unsustainable.
    Growth is not required. A stable system with a stable demographic and stable costs is not in danger of collapsing. >*obvious*<

  11. #176

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    Looks like Canada and European countries are going bankrupt any moment due to the health care costs...
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    Last edited by Teme; 03-06-2012 at 02:28 AM.

  12. #177
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    well, you see, we socialists haven't counted on the future demographic explosion. We're doomed. If we continue on this path, one day we might even be forced to pay nearly the double percentage-wise of our combined GDP to our 8,5% of today. Puting us up to about 16-19%, and there's no way a country can sustain tha.... o wayt..

  13. #178
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    The German healthcare system just posted a 1.8 billion € surplus this year after recent reforms.

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by tluassa View Post
    The German healthcare system just posted a 1.8 billion € surplus this year after recent reforms.
    Stop denying Oma her healthcare. She needs it.

  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ought Six View Post
    The American system gives you lots of deductions, which the false accounting we see in comparisons like the Wikipedia one counts as if they were tax credits.
    If they are giving you something its not a deduction its a credit, deduction is like what you are allowed to claim as an expense eg depreciation, which can lower your reported profit which is subject to tax.

    ----------The point that I was making is precisely the opposite of what you are claiming; that they are not carbon copies of each other, and thus cannot be directly compared with any accuracy.
    No system is a carbon copy of another, all the universal healthcare systems themselves differ in their implementation and funding yet they still compare pretty favourably with each other.

    ----------One example is Panama, which I have been investigating as a possible retirement location. There are many others.
    ----------Growth is not required. A stable system with a stable demographic and stable costs is not in danger of collapsing. >*obvious*<
    Stable system is a stagnant system, also panama is not what you would call a stable system without high enough level of growth the government still runs at a deficit just like everybody else, without growth they couldn't reduce their 25% poverty level and their level inequality is also not indicative of a healthy system either.

    You would hate retiring here, ontop of having the 2nd lowest tax burden in the OECD we also have universal healthcare, least corrupt on the corruption perceptions index and 3rd on the ease of doing business index, evil socialism.

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