Canada's welfare state starts to implode as demographic realities come home to roost

[Clayton Gold]

This is just an anti-Obama thread disguised to be something else. However, Ought Six is correct in that our demographics are going to catch up with us if we do not take action soon. Everything else is a load of uninformed crap.

The solution is to get rid of the "only public" mandate, and allow some private medicine to operate as well. Quebec is already doing this, and I suspect other provinces will follow suit. Stephen Harper has publicly spoken of this, and is trying to bring this discussion into the mainstream regarding Canadian health care.

We don't need some ideological wanker like Ought Six to tell us how it ought to be. You have your own mess to clean up. We're doing just fine, thanks.

[Wahnsinn]

Also, I've learned never to mock or talk bad about the NHS to Brits. They may talk about its deficiencies inside, but if you as a foreigner criticizes...God help you, the ranks close faster than you can say 'healthcare'

What people from outside the UK cannot seem to grasp is that there are three distinct National Health Services in the UK. I don't know how many times I will have to repeat that before understand that fundamental point. I'm seeing a lot of sheer ignorance about healthcare in the UK in this thread, starting with that concept.

Now if we could just get Ought Six to stop trying dictate to us about things he has no experience of, we might have a chance at a productive, insightful exchange of views.

I'll walk on the moon before that will ever happen.

[Dirtydiaper]

I'm not an expert on Sweden, but my impression is that like Japan (which also has tax-payer subsidized health care), the overwhelming majority of the population works and contributes towards the system, and the amount of people who leech off it are miniscule. Also in Japan, people tend to make wise lifestyle choices: illegal drugs are rare, and people tend to eat sensibly.

As a result, heavy taxpayer subsidization of healthcare has been successful in Sweden and Japan.

However, it's different in the US, where we have a lot of people who simply want to lay around and be parasites. I work in a hospital, where I see ER patients arriving on a hourly basis, due to their lifestyle choices: heavy drug use, alcoholism, and junk food/fast food diets.

I have no problem with the government using my tax dollars with assisting those who are in temporary constraints and need a helping hand to get on their feet. During the approximate two years I was working for near-minimum wage, and had four mouths to feed, my kids were on government-funded health insurance, and I was grateful for the help. But I resent having to enable people who simply have no desire to do what it takes to survive and prosper on their own, and I think that in our society, a system like yours in Sweden or that in Japan would simply not work.

What a analytic, well formulated and to-the-point response, even if I don't agree with you. And you didn't use the word as*hole even once.

Are you not on the wrong forum?

[FkDahl]

Let me first state that this thread is staying on target a bit too much!
Secondly I want to point the secondary factors that emerge from a socialized health care system, and it is how people will support other government actions that in the end decrease health case costs. Let me give some examples of what I mean.
- Tax on soft drinks (soda pop for you Canadians) and other sugary laden food. Has support in e.g. Sweden and France but I cannot see it go through in the US. But averybody (who has been in the US) knows the relationship between sugar consumption. obesity and health problems
- Walkable communities, bike trails and public transport. Some in the GOP in the US equal town planning for this with a UN instigated plan to force the USA into socialism. But while that part is admittedly true, it also makes people walk more, and keeps people slimmer (cue New York).
If people know they have to pay for the fat bastards healthcare they will happily force him to walk!

[danielc]

There is no support in Canada for a system like the US. When Canada talks about improving it's health care system, it's looking at European models, French, German, Swiss, because those are the best. A mixture of private and public health services, all regulated by the government, and accessible to everyone. Plus, Canada is doing great, real estate market is booming, the banks are solid, the unemployment rate is not bad, the economy is chugging along, we have the best performance of all western nations, so what's there to criticize.

[Sashko]

Capping doctor's pay to reasonable 200-250/year instead of current half a mil will go a long way towards preserving free healthcare. No way a family physician deserves to pocket half a million dollars a year, it just perpetuates an unsustainable system where 9 out of 10 doctors are in it for the money. System also has a lot of fat that could be trimmed, such as hordes of beuracracy apparatchiks.

Capping welfare same as unemployment (6-12 months) will probably create a budget surplus. In Toronto there are whole ghettos where people haven't worked a day in their lives, some even don't bother to learn English.

[vinny_121_ND]

Capping doctor's pay to reasonable 200-250/year instead of current half a mil will go a long way towards preserving free healthcare. No way a family physician deserves to pocket half a million dollars a year, it just perpetuates an unsustainable system where 9 out of 10 doctors are in it for the money. System also has a lot of fat that could be trimmed, such as hordes of beuracracy apparatchiks.

Capping welfare same as unemployment (6-12 months) will probably create a budget surplus. In Toronto there are whole ghettos where people haven't worked a day in their lives, some even don't bother to learn English.

Family GP's? Making half a million? No, only certain specialists make half a million a year.
http://www.discoveryfinance.com/nati...rs-canada.html

Doctors in Canada do not make as much as they could in the US. If Doctors were in it for the money, we would see american doctors coming to canada to work, and working in rural areas. Unfortunately, there's a massive shortage of doctors in those areas.

[toad]

Capping doctor's pay to reasonable 200-250/year instead of current half a mil will go a long way towards preserving free healthcare. No way a family physician deserves to pocket half a million dollars a year, it just perpetuates an unsustainable system where 9 out of 10 doctors are in it for the money. System also has a lot of fat that could be trimmed, such as hordes of beuracracy apparatchiks.

Capping welfare same as unemployment (6-12 months) will probably create a budget surplus. In Toronto there are whole ghettos where people haven't worked a day in their lives, some even don't bother to learn English.

Don't take this a I'm saying "you're wrong". But the part where you mention capping a Canadian Dr's salary at under half a milion seemed off base to me. I'm from the US, and don't know all the economics of Canadian wages. But wow, that sounds ubelievably low.

A Business Analyst (clerk, technician etc....) in a company that does IT work or someting similar makes $100k-150k after about 10 years....
That's in a average state like Pa. Those like me most often do not have college degrees. Like me, it was 4yrs of military experience then OJT for the company. (not small business) a larger one.

Capping an MD or PA (physicians Assistant) at that low a salary after they spent so much time on education, just seem bizzare.

The family Dr's, and this is just my opinon should earn well above 250k.

Heck, toll-takers on the turnpike make over a 100k

[Corrupt]

Heck, toll-takers on the turnpike make over a 100k

What the actual fvck? That'd be like £18,000 ($28,000) job here. Most doctors make over £100k, once all their training is done. Many are into the £200k+ bands though.

[Hildemel]

The baby boomers aren't helping the situation either.

[ghostt888]

There is no support in Canada for a system like the US. When Canada talks about improving it's health care system, it's looking at European models, French, German, Swiss, because those are the best. A mixture of private and public health services, all regulated by the government, and accessible to everyone. Plus, Canada is doing great, real estate market is booming, the banks are solid, the unemployment rate is not bad, the economy is chugging along, we have the best performance of all western nations, so what's there to criticize.

I really wouldn't put any money on the Canadian real estate market, expect something like what happened in the US within the next 3-6 years. Regarding everything else, there is no doubt room for improvement!

[valtrex]

No thanks. You can keep your's and go the way of Greece.

Infant mortality rate:
Greece 38th (5.16), US 46th (6.26)

Maternal mortality ratio (per 100,000 live births), 2008
(Greece > 20, US 20-99)

Diphtheria-tet****-toxoid and perussis (DTP3) immunization coverage among 1-year-olds:
Greece--> 99%
US--> 95%
Source: WHO

If you really think that the Greek problem is due to the universal health care, you are either very naive, or dense.

[CPL Trevoga]

Capping doctor's pay to reasonable 200-250/year instead of current half a mil will go a long way towards preserving free healthcare. No way a family physician deserves to pocket half a million dollars a year, it just perpetuates an unsustainable system where 9 out of 10 doctors are in it for the money. System also has a lot of fat that could be trimmed, such as hordes of beuracracy apparatchiks.

Capping welfare same as unemployment (6-12 months) will probably create a budget surplus. In Toronto there are whole ghettos where people haven't worked a day in their lives, some even don't bother to learn English.

CEO's and Banking ****s make billions and their contribution to the society? Zero. If doctor makes half a mil, I'm cool with dat, cuz they save lives and ****.


I personally think this is another ANTI-Obama propaganda piece by some conservatives.

[Meatwad]

Yeah our healthcare system is 100x preferred to what the US has, but thanks for the concern Ought Six. It would be political suicide for the Conservative govt to annouce or make any major changes. Canadians would rather make cuts to anything, and I do mean anything over free healthcare.

It's stupid things like cutting the CPP to buy F-35's which don't really suit our needs that piss us off.

[Dirtydiaper]

Canadians would rather make cuts to anything, and I do mean anything over free healthcare.

It's attitudes like that that don't give you stealth hoovering supercruising area bombers.

Shame on you for not wanting humanity to progress forward.