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Thread: Iran offers "new initiatives" for talks

  1. #61
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    In your own reply and the one I gave, he implied facilities first and foremost. You may try to cherry pick. You'd fail. Iran knew that Osiris and Isis were not Functionnal. It was really like hitting a sand castle.

    However, that would still present you with the CERN sabotage...see my .gouv.fr link. Attacking with hollow charges a nuclear reactor core means attacking the said reactor (furthermore they introduced themselves into a French Nuclear site and used explosives in an active nuclear facility)...Twice attacked before 1980. So again.

    On a side note: Regional Hegemon needs a proof? Oh really?

    I mean. It's not like Israel isn't able to dictate policies to the countries around. Or simply attack them without needing any approval and beating them to submission. Or threatening them with attack.

    Israel with or without US approval is the current Near and Middle East hegemon. They fear for their freedom of action, not their survival. Which is understandable given their position today. Again there is no malice here.

    As for Operation Ajax, I'd like to underline that I never said Israel was an American Client State...they chose the UK and US in 1952/3. They did that again in 1957. I will not go beyond this on Operation Ajax. Not because I'm not sure about the sources, but this is a flame attempt and last time despite handing out evidence I was met with more flaming and at last with a suspension from a moderator, despite being factually correct.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoTeMoRe View Post
    In your own reply and the one I gave, he implied facilities first and foremost. You may try to cherry pick. You'd fail.
    It wasn't the case at all.
    But even if it was the boats that shipped the heavy water and the sabotaged cores were not facilities. Todd was correct.

    Iran knew that Osiris and Isis were not Functionnal. It was really like hitting a sand castle.
    Todd did not say Osirak was functional. Osirak wasn't functional when Israel destroyed it either.

    However, that would still present you with the CERN sabotage...see my .gouv.fr link. Attacking with hollow charges a nuclear reactor core means attacking the said reactor (furthermore they introduced themselves into a French Nuclear site and used explosives in an active nuclear facility)...Twice attacked before 1980. So again.
    I failed to find in this document where it is written that it was Israel that sabotaged the cores.

    On a side note: Regional Hegemon needs a proof? Oh really?

    I mean. It's not like Israel isn't able to dictate policies to the countries around. Or simply attack them without needing any approval and beating them to submission. Or threatening them with attack.

    Israel with or without US approval is the current Near and Middle East hegemon. They fear for their freedom of action, not their survival. Which is understandable given their position today. Again there is no malice here.
    Your theory does not stand. Israel and Iran were cooperating closely at the time of the Shah when both were US clients. There was no problem of hegemony for either of them.

    As for Operation Ajax, I'd like to underline that I never said Israel was an American Client State...they chose the UK and US in 1952/3. They did that again in 1957. I will not go beyond this on Operation Ajax. Not because I'm not sure about the sources, but this is a flame attempt and last time despite handing out evidence I was met with more flaming and at last with a suspension from a moderator, despite being factually correct.
    Israel had nothing to do with Operation Ajax.
    You were not suspended for being correct or incorrect but for your repeated insults and baseless accusations.

  3. #63
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    Defeat in detail trolling?

    Where did I say Israel was behind Ajax? I said they chose not to help Mosadegh. Deliberately.
    Toad spoke about attacking a nuclear facility. Twice. Sadly they (Iranians) were not first at this.

    The reactor was part of Iraq’s quest for a nuclear weapon. On September 8, 1975,then-Vice President Saddam Hussein declared publicly that the purchase of the French
    reactors ‘‘was the first actual step in the production of an Arab atomic weapon, despite the
    fact that the declared purpose for the establishment of the reactor is not the production of
    atomic weapons.’’
    12
    The Iranian revolution accelerated Iraqi interest in acquiring an atomic
    bomb. In December 1979, Hussein directly commanded his nuclear scientists to defy NPT
    commitments and build a nuclear weapon.
    13
    At the same time, Israel made efforts to delay the Iraqi nuclear program. The Israelis
    filed a false laser patent in the late 1970s to mislead Arab nuclear research. Their
    intelligence agents triggered explosions in April 1979 at a French production plant near
    Toulouse, damaging the two reactor cores destined for the Iraqi reactors. Israeli agents
    may also have been behind the murders of an Egyptian nuclear engineer in Paris as well as
    two Iraqi engineers, all working for the Iraqi nuclear program.
    14
    Page 357...

    OT/
    Whoever followed the debate last time can testify I called you a liar and borderline xenophobic. To my understanding calling someone a liar when he's indeed lying is not insulting. Who ever considers someone according to his nationality alone is a biased person. I remember you calling me and my country a hot bed for Islamism while knowing zip about me. People even laughed at you on that thread.

    Hollis interfered because he felt I was going out of line. Good for him. You don't disown the judge. /OT
    I'll stop this here...

    Have a nice day.
    Last edited by KoTeMoRe; 02-20-2012 at 02:23 PM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoTeMoRe View Post

    ... snip ...

    On a side note: Regional Hegemon needs a proof? Oh really?

    I mean. It's not like Israel isn't able to dictate policies to the countries around. Or simply attack them without needing any approval and beating them to submission. Or threatening them with attack.

    ... snip ...
    Yes, your claim of Israel as a hegemon needs proof because you are clearly confusing deterence with hegemony.

    Quote Originally Posted by KoTeMoRe View Post

    ... snip ...

    As for Operation Ajax, I'd like to underline that I never said Israel was an American Client State...they chose the UK and US in 1952/3. They did that again in 1957. I will not go beyond this on Operation Ajax. Not because I'm not sure about the sources, but this is a flame attempt and last time despite handing out evidence I was met with more flaming and at last with a suspension from a moderator, despite being factually correct.
    Well then, do not bring this ***** up if you cannot substantiate it. Try this, why do you not just document Israel's fore-knowledge of Ajax.

  5. #65
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    Deterrence? What is deterrence, hitting Iraq while passing through the airspace of a country that doesn't even consider Israel as real? Not that is Hegemony. Israel obtained a free ride through KSA airspace...just like it obtained a post-strike DA from the Iranians or that it had the Iranians reconsider any attempt at them while Iran tried to force the USA into selling weapons to them. IE Israel misled the Iranians during the Hostage situation by telling them the US envoys wouldn't deal beyond certain terms (wich were proven to be Israeli terms). IE Israel stalled the talks in order to milk both sides for its profit. Great play, only it led to a tragedy.

    Inspiring so much fear or "respect" would be deterrence if Israel wouldn't also posses a formidable force projection capability through the IAF.

    As for Ajax...if you were so sure it's bollocks why are you so defensive? Can you disprove that? I mean that's your usual tactic. I know something that you don't. Deal with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KoTeMoRe View Post
    Defeat in detail trolling?

    Where did I say Israel was behind Ajax? I said they chose not to help Mosadegh. Deliberately.
    Israel was a very small and very poor country in 1952/53. How could she help or not help Mosadegh against the UK and the USA?
    Which countries helped Mosadegh, and why did you singularized Israel for not helping him?


    Toad spoke about attacking a nuclear facility. Twice. Sadly they (Iranians) were not first at this.



    Page 357...
    Thank you, I ignored the involvement of Israel in this sabotage had been confirmed.
    In any case, it was a sabotage of a component and not an attack against a nuclear facility.

    I'll stop this here...

    Have a nice day.
    Thank you, but it's already night in France. I don't know where you are at the moment, so have a nice evening/day too.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoTeMoRe View Post
    Deterrence? What is deterrence, hitting Iraq while passing through the airspace of a country that doesn't even consider Israel as real? Not that is Hegemony. Israel obtained a free ride through KSA airspace...just like it obtained a post-strike DA from the Iranians or that it had the Iranians reconsider any attempt at them while Iran tried to force the USA into selling weapons to them. IE Israel misled the Iranians during the Hostage situation by telling them the US envoys wouldn't deal beyond certain terms (wich were proven to be Israeli terms). IE Israel stalled the talks in order to milk both sides for its profit. Great play, only it led to a tragedy.

    Inspiring so much fear or "respect" would be deterrence if Israel wouldn't also posses a formidable force projection capability through the IAF.

    ... snip ...
    Demonstrate how KSA, or Jordan or Egypt or Syria or Lebanon fall under an Israeli sphere of influence. Otherwise, STFU.

    Deterence or aligned interests do not make for a state of hegemony.


    Quote Originally Posted by KoTeMoRe View Post
    ... snip ...

    As for Ajax...if you were so sure it's bollocks why are you so defensive? Can you disprove that? I mean that's your usual tactic. I know something that you don't. Deal with it.
    You made the claim, you prove it.

    Also, you insult me intelligence with the provide the negative nonsense. But doubt I can cast as Israel was not closely aligned with the US in 1953, and would have no basis whatsoever to have information on CIA plans in Iran.

    So, I call BS until you back your claim with a reasonable documentary link.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoTeMoRe View Post
    (…) Israel obtained a free ride through KSA airspace...just like it obtained a post-strike DA from the Iranians or that it had the Iranians reconsider any attempt at them while Iran tried to force the USA into selling weapons to them. IE Israel misled the Iranians during the Hostage situation by telling them the US envoys wouldn't deal beyond certain terms (wich were proven to be Israeli terms). IE Israel stalled the talks in order to milk both sides for its profit. Great play, only it led to a tragedy.
    I ignore what you are talking about and on what you base your statement. If you have a reliable source to sustain it, please share so I can learn something.

    Inspiring so much fear or "respect" would be deterrence if Israel wouldn't also posses a formidable force projection capability through the IAF.
    This sentence makes nonsense. How could one deter if he lacks the capability to project force?

    As for Ajax...if you were so sure it's bollocks why are you so defensive? Can you disprove that? I mean that's your usual tactic. I know something that you don't. Deal with it.
    I ignore again what you are talking about and on what you base your statement. If you have a reliable source to sustain it, please share it so I can learn something.

  9. #69
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    No one is speaking about intervention. It was about talking to Mosadegh. They didn't, instead members of the Jewish community served as liaison and fund managers for the slander campaign against Mosadegh. People in the know chose to shut up. It's not unheard off. Just shows what I pointed out above.

    Again nothing against Israel. Just showing that they have higher priorities. And this goes for Iran aswell. Both nations are competing for US "protection" in a weird and hilarious way. Iran does it all wrong, while having all its cards in hand. Israel does it all right and with its chutzpah despite providing next to no interest when compared to Iran.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KoTeMoRe View Post
    No one is speaking about intervention. It was about talking to Mosadegh. They didn't, instead members of the Jewish community served as liaison and fund managers for the slander campaign against Mosadegh. People in the know chose to shut up. It's not unheard off. Just shows what I pointed out above.

    ... snip ...
    Classy, Kotemore, very classy ...

  11. #71
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    They don't? Who do they fear the most? Who do they loath and curse. Who are they unable to stop. The Israeli, military, social, cultural and also economical hegemony in the region is so blatant that it enables you to talk trash. Even when opposed with the most enthusiast and bemused character. Please tone down the insults. It's bad for your argument.

    Given the direct and explicit force projection and the fact that the world is in the verge of coercing Iran for Israel's sake...sounds like quite a good proof.



    Did I insulted your intelligence? No, I said there are things in life you'll have to learn. But as the last time you were adamant to ignore facts, I'll stop from feeding you with them. For fear that they'd be distorted as they ended up last time.

    The plot against Mosadegh was primarily British...the US were the "thinking hands" of that operation.

    Carry on.

    Nice baiting btw.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoTeMoRe View Post
    No one is speaking about intervention. It was about talking to Mosadegh. They didn't, instead members of the Jewish community served as liaison and fund managers for the slander campaign against Mosadegh.
    What do you mean?
    Do you mean some Jews were involved in this or do you mean the official bodies of the Jewish community were involved?

    People in the know chose to shut up. It's not unheard off. Just shows what I pointed out above.
    I never heard such rumor.
    Could it be just one more antisemitic conspiracy theory?

    Again nothing against Israel. Just showing that they have higher priorities. And this goes for Iran aswell. Both nations are competing for US "protection" in a weird and hilarious way. Iran does it all wrong, while having all its cards in hand. Israel does it all right and with its chutzpah despite providing next to no interest when compared to Iran.
    History proves that both Iran and Israel can be US allies, while close and friendly relation. And it happened in a time Iran was indeed more important for US interests than Israel.

  13. #73
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    Select Jewish Iranians within Shah's entourage.

    Actually not. The Jews in Iran made the right choice. I personally wouldn't have wanted to see his views go through. I wouldn't have wanted to stay next to a Tudeh led "revolution" in the 50's if I was Jew. That's why I find GB's bait hilarious. Because he has no Idea who I have that info from.

    The Mullahs sound crazy but they were not into "tumor" extraction yesterday, nor today or tomorrow. I've said it before Israel is vital for Iran to reach the US. It was back then, it will be tomorrow.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoTeMoRe View Post
    They don't? Who do they fear the most? Who do they loath and curse. Who are they unable to stop. The Israeli, military, social, cultural and also economical hegemony in the region is so blatant that it enables you to talk trash. (…)
    You are messing different things.
    Israel is indeed a regional military power. Its society and economy are strong while many other states of the region remained backward. But this does not imply hegemony, because Israel has no influence over the policies of the Arab states of the region.

    Given the direct and explicit force projection and the fact that the world is in the verge of coercing Iran for Israel's sake...sounds like quite a good proof.
    Proof of what?
    The interest to stop Iran from becoming nuclear is global and regional. Israel is just the most noisy actor in this play.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KoTeMoRe View Post
    Select Jewish Iranians within Shah's entourage.
    In this case, if I understand you correctly, you meant that it was not a Jewish plot but that some Iranians of Jewish confession also participated to it.
    So how was it related to Israel?

    Actually not. The Jews in Iran made the right choice. I personally wouldn't have wanted to see his views go through. I wouldn't have wanted to stay next to a Tudeh led "revolution" in the 50's if I was Jew.
    These were the years of Cold War and many people - without any relation to their religion - were unwilling the Communists to prevail in their societies.
    But what is your source about this?

    That's why I find GB's bait hilarious. Because he has no Idea who I have that info from.

    The Mullahs sound crazy but they were not into "tumor" extraction yesterday, nor today or tomorrow. I've said it before Israel is vital for Iran to reach the US. It was back then, it will be tomorrow.
    In my opinion, once the Mullahs gone, Israel and Iran should become friends and allies again.

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