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Thread: Nato apologises for Afghan Koran 'disposal'

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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    As I posted in another thread on the subject, what we see as simply a book is seen by some as the perfect word of God (i.e. NOT a book). I'm far from an expert on Islam, but I do know that a conservative Pashtun feels far more strongly about the Koran than most Christians feel about the Bible, which was written by men.

    This is a good example of not looking at another culture through American lenses.
    Honestly, I can only look through the lenses that I have been given, much as the Afgans see from their perspective.
    I understand what you are saying, but I refer to the thing that controls THAT culture is Islam. I don't even have a problem with Islam, but with how intolerant it is to non-muslims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sideline View Post
    Honestly, I can only look through the lenses that I have been given, much as the Afgans see from their perspective.
    I understand what you are saying, but I refer to the thing that controls THAT culture is Islam. I don't even have a problem with Islam, but with how intolerant it is to non-muslims.
    To remove this from the attachment to Islam, here are a few examples of things I experienced in Afghanistan that I'm using to illustrate the way they think differently, and with no malice.

    At one place, we bought a refrigerator/freezer combo (what everyone in America has in their kitchen) so some of our local national employees could have cold water and store leftover food. In less than a week, the guys came to me to demand a new refrigerator/freezer, because theirs was dead. Upon investigation, I learned that they'd opened the freezer on top and the fridge on the bottom and had pointed a couple of fans at it to spill cold air into their living area... In all honesty, I call that ingenuity, not backwardness. All they knew was that this was a machine that was supposed to keep stuff cold.

    Another time, one of our local national employees disappeared for a day. When he came in the next morning, he apologized and said that he'd been in a car wreck. In the west, he'd have been found blameless (someone blew an intersection and T-Boned him) but, when the Afghan cops showed up, they looked at the guy wearing western clothes, driving a nice car, then at the guy in jammies who was driving a POS, and said to our guy (The well dressed guy who would in no way be considered at fault here in America) "Well, maybe he hit you, but you're a rich man. You're able to pay for the damage to everyone, and he can't, so that's that."

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    First, thank you for sharing. I don't expect them to know about the 'modern' world or even embrace the modern world, as stated in a previous post when I mention a lack of modernity. I can appreciate the slower pace of life, and their resorcefulness/ingenuity, I have never doubted that. It just seems to me if we talk about cultures, we cannot detatch the one aspect that controlls EVERY aspect of their lives, and shapes and directs said culture. Islam is not just a religion of faith, it is more a way of life, religion, politics, social...etc. These Afgan people, I have no doubt are indeed noble in heart, but they are controlled by Islam in every aspect of their lives, so I am not surprised that they hold their Koran so dear, as it's basicly all they have (since they can't choose for themselves). I have to personally 'reach' when I call Islam a faith, because it is something you are born into, only to follow without question,(leaving Islam is No-No) and doing what is decided by those that 'know better' whether they reside in their palaces, or preside on a council (Indoctrination). I too am confused when I am told how they cant help themselves because a Koran had been mishandled by someone, and then everything erupts just like this recent event......while as someone pointed out they have no problem blowing up a holy mosque (with hardly the public backlash), which is killing/burning fellow muslims/korans, and anything else held sacred in the mosque. The big difference is 'who' does it, the outrage they show is nothing compared to outrage when an infidel/non-muslim makes a 'mistake'. It seems like hipocricy. Their life controlling book castes non-muslims as inferior from its creation and it's reinforced to date. They are taught/kept down by (governments?) those that dictate to them, to fear/fight satan (me). So I don't blame the Afgans themselves for their situation, I am just frustrated to see that Islam is so intolerant of non-muslims. I'm all for mutual understanding/cooperation, and co-existance, but it must go both ways. I don't see Islam doing that, I see migration coming out of the main Islamic rooted countries and demanding respect, but unwilling to give any when it comes to Islam. I wonder how many mosques have been built in the 'west' in the last 15 years, and how many buildings of non-muslim faiths have been built in their countries of origin. I wonder these things, not as a Christian, but as a non-muslim. I will end the Islam stuff, because to discuss it, is not accepted and one runs the risk of being labeled. Thank you, again, and I will drop the Islam 'wonderings' as not to 'rock' the MP.net 'boat'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by muck View Post
    Seeing the bloody consequences I wish they had sent PSYOPS vehicles with loudspeakers to every goddamn village and aired messages like "We didn't do it by purpose. So calm the f[*******#000080]u[/COLOR]ck down, you're acting like mentally retarded 5-year-olds and the whole world laughs at you".
    As an ex-PSYOP guy, I hereby declare your idea for terrible. )

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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    Oh. Pretty much the entire country goes to the mosque on Friday. In addition to prayer, they get their news there too. If it seems like this has really blown up from local to national in the past 36 hours or so, that's probably why.
    James,
    from what I read now online here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...n-burning.html
    it appears the anger has spilled into Libyan graveyards of WWII British troops, smashing monuments and headstones, if the photos are believed.
    Personally I am a loss as to how to deal with this type of cultural view.

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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    As I posted in another thread on the subject, what we see as simply a book is seen by some as the perfect word of God (i.e. NOT a book). I'm far from an expert on Islam, but I do know that a conservative Pashtun feels far more strongly about the Koran than most Christians feel about the Bible, which was written by men.

    This is a good example of not looking at another culture through American lenses.
    You make a good point, which has brought back one of the important lessons I learned in my Anthropology classes (Man, this was one of the first things I learned as an undergraduate taking a minor in anthropology). The issue of Ethnocentrism, which is defined as making judgments about another culture from the perspective of one's own cultural system. In simplistic terms, an ethnocentric individual will judge other groups relative to his or her own particular ethnic group or culture, especially in areas that concern language, behavior, customs, and religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sideline View Post
    First, thank you for sharing. I don't expect them to know about the 'modern' world or even embrace the modern world, as stated in a previous post when I mention a lack of modernity. I can appreciate the slower pace of life, and their resorcefulness/ingenuity, I have never doubted that. It just seems to me if we talk about cultures, we cannot detatch the one aspect that controlls EVERY aspect of their lives, and shapes and directs said culture. Islam is not just a religion of faith, it is more a way of life, religion, politics, social...etc. These Afgan people, I have no doubt are indeed noble in heart, but they are controlled by Islam in every aspect of their lives, so I am not surprised that they hold their Koran so dear, as it's basicly all they have (since they can't choose for themselves). I have to personally 'reach' when I call Islam a faith, because it is something you are born into, only to follow without question,(leaving Islam is No-No) and doing what is decided by those that 'know better' whether they reside in their palaces, or preside on a council (Indoctrination). I too am confused when I am told how they cant help themselves because a Koran had been mishandled by someone, and then everything erupts just like this recent event......while as someone pointed out they have no problem blowing up a holy mosque (with hardly the public backlash), which is killing/burning fellow muslims/korans, and anything else held sacred in the mosque. The big difference is 'who' does it, the outrage they show is nothing compared to outrage when an infidel/non-muslim makes a 'mistake'. It seems like hipocricy. Their life controlling book castes non-muslims as inferior from its creation and it's reinforced to date. They are taught/kept down by (governments?) those that dictate to them, to fear/fight satan (me). So I don't blame the Afgans themselves for their situation, I am just frustrated to see that Islam is so intolerant of non-muslims. I'm all for mutual understanding/cooperation, and co-existance, but it must go both ways. I don't see Islam doing that, I see migration coming out of the main Islamic rooted countries and demanding respect, but unwilling to give any when it comes to Islam. I wonder how many mosques have been built in the 'west' in the last 15 years, and how many buildings of non-muslim faiths have been built in their countries of origin. I wonder these things, not as a Christian, but as a non-muslim. I will end the Islam stuff, because to discuss it, is not accepted and one runs the risk of being labeled. Thank you, again, and I will drop the Islam 'wonderings' as not to 'rock' the MP.net 'boat'.
    It was the hypocrisy between the burning of Korans and attacks on mosques that had me confused. However, once I think about it the reaction probably stems from who carries out the act. There is probably going to be lower amounts of backlash if such acts were carried out by fellow Muslims. However, if an outsider or non-Muslim carries out similar act than one should expect a high amount of backlash, such as burning a Koran. If this is the average reaction produced by an outsider burning a Koran. **Then imagine the reaction if some western, non-Muslim, nut-job that has an association with some radical group decides to blow-up a mosque.

    **Please note that I'm referring to radical groups, individuals seeking attention through self-destructive acts, somebody that is in their own little world, and I know many other examples exist.

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    A good general not only sees the way to victory, he also knows when victory is impossible.
    Polybius

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    Quote Originally Posted by tea drinker View Post
    Our allies are looking for any excuse to kill us, so we have to be sensitive.
    Sums up the madness quite well!

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    we can be sensitive, but never perfect.

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    I would seperate this from islam (if the outright dumba** acts hadn't just happen in Libya) yet again, here is another glaring example of muslims in action. (regardless of national origin) not all mind you, but the same group of followers. Nothing new here, happens over and over again. You would think there would be a "peaceful" and "tolerant" response to this incident, since we've been told for over a decade now that this "religion" is of peace. If 10+ years of support, "sensivity", and monetary assistance in Afghanistan have not helped to show our "concern" for the local populace and their sentivities, then we need to leave today. Because another week, month or year is sure as hell not going to convince them were are caring of their beliefs. Sigh. What bewilders me is the constant excuse-making by people here on the reactions of these people (muslims) to any and every situation that arises. Your continued excuse making for their intolerant, bigoted, hateful and down-right lunatic reactions is not going to make them like us (West). They do not care what you believe or how you live, the sooner you come to realize that the better off, we all will be. My question now is, what are you going to do if the local muslim population acts like this in your own country? Make excuses? Apologise? Captiulate? Convert?
    A Christian pastor (Yousef Nadarkhani) has recently been sentenced to death in Iran for converting. Do you see Christians ransacking muslim embassies and killing muslims? No. Bibles in a local Afghan dialect were burned in early 2009 and Chrisitians didn't go berserk over that, did they? Again, no. Wake up.
    Last edited by haze99; 02-26-2012 at 04:23 PM.

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    Senior Member Holmes85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by haze99 View Post
    I would seperate this from islam (if the outright dumba** acts hadn't just happen in Libya) yet again, here is another glaring example of muslims in action. (regardless of national origin) not all mind you, but the same group of followers. Nothing new here, happens over and over again. You would think there would be a "peaceful" and "tolerant" response to this incident, since we've been told for over a decade now that this "religion" is of peace. If 10+ years of support, "sensivity", and monetary assistance in Afghanistan have not helped to show our "concern" for the local populace and their sentivities, then we need to leave today. Because another week, month or year is sure as hell not going to convince them were are caring of their beliefs. Sigh. What bewilders me is the constant excuse-making by people here on the reactions of these people (muslims) to any and every situation that arises. Your continued excuse making for their intolerant, bigoted, hateful and down-right lunatic reactions is not going to make them like us (West). They do not care what you believe or how you live, the sooner you come to realize that the better off, we all will be. My question now is, what are you going to do if the local muslim population acts like this in your own country? Make excuses? Apologise? Captiulate? Convert?
    A Christian pastor (Yousef Nadarkhani) has recently been sentenced to death in Iran for converting. Do you see Christians ransacking muslim embassies and killing muslims? No. Bibles in a local Afghan dialect were burned in early 2009 and Chrisitians didn't go berserk over that, did they? Again, no. Wake up.
    From the way the news of this event spread from Afghanistan spread to other countries at such a rapid pace there's the possibility that various factions or terrorist organizations like elements of the Taliban using the event as a propaganda weapon, especially if they over-inflate the situation. I think it is also important to remember that Afghanistan is not known as the "Graveyard of Empires" for nothing.

    Reading this provided me some food for thought.
    http://www.e-ir.info/2011/03/31/brze...w-world-order/

    Notable Passages.

    "The problem is that at least since the 16th century no empire has sustainably prevailed by force in Afghanistan. Besides, neocon strategists never provided a convincing answer to the question 'why would you succeed where the Russians failed?'”

    "A defeat on the Eurasian Heartland can be most painful. Since Alexander the Great no empire has long survived an injury in Central Asia. This fairly verifiable phenomenon has become an empiric rule of military history: The US has broken the second rule of war. That is, don’t go fighting with your land army on the mainland of Asia. Rule One is don’t march on Moscow."

    "One would have to be on one’s toes to win the hearts and souls in Afghanistan. Coercion has never proved effective in subduing the people among whom a dozen civilizations have established their historic capitols and that was traversed by empires from the Achaemenids to the Guebres to the Mongols – whom they even assimilated in their national and cultural identity – to the Russians and British whom they defeated several times at the top of their power."

    [SIZE=2] Personal note - Why don't we leave before we become another historical statistic.[/SIZE][SIZE=2] We got Osama Bin Laden.[/SIZE][SIZE=2] Wasn't that one of the main goals?[/SIZE]

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    [SIZE=4]Nato can overcome Koran protests 'setback' - commander[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=4]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17216173

    [SIZE=3][SIZE=2]Interesting fragment[/SIZE]
    [/SIZE][SIZE=2]Gen Allen said he would be willing to walk unarmed into the Afghan interior ministry, where two Nato military advisors were shot dead on Saturday. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=2]Their killer is believed to have been an Afghan police intelligence officer.[/SIZE]
    [/SIZE]

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    2 more NATO soldiers killed by an afghan soldier

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    Quote Originally Posted by themacedonian View Post
    2 more NATO soldiers killed by an afghan soldier
    RIP. Any news about nationality or place?
    Ps.
    What about gen Allen did he still want to go to interrior ministry unarmed?

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    Damn... This needs to be stopped.

    RIP.

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