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Thread: Israeli Court Invalidates a Military Exemption (for Ultra-Orthodox)

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    Senior Member OrangeWolf's Avatar
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    Default Israeli Court Invalidates a Military Exemption (for Ultra-Orthodox)

    Israeli Court Invalidates a Military Exemption
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/23/wo...ml?_r=2&src=tp

    Hopefully a new law will not be written by a majority who are succumbing to religious fundamentalist wackos for coalition-forming reasons....

    early Zionists believed the Haredim lifestyle would eventually disappear in the face of modernity
    That didn't really work out now did it

    EDIT: Meanwhile:
    Yishai: Tal Law will be extended for another year
    http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Ar...aspx?id=259054

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    Senior Member [WDW]Megaraptor's Avatar
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    If Haredim think that Israel has been prematurely established as a Jewish state, why do they take part in the government?

    This really seems like something that can be worked out, especially since in the USA we have ultra-orthodox Jews who seem to be more integrated into society than they are in Israel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by [WDW]Megaraptor View Post
    If Haredim think that Israel has been prematurely established as a Jewish state, why do they take part in the government?
    To suck Jewish state's money.

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    It's none of my business, but I have to say, it's a good thing. Let them serve like (nearly) everyone else, including the Druze and Beduin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gaijinsamurai View Post
    it's none of my business, but i have to say, it's a good thing. Let them serve like (nearly) everyone else, including the druze and beduin.
    2x,,,,,,,,,,

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    Tel Aviv Stud tanks_alot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [WDW]Megaraptor View Post
    If Haredim think that Israel has been prematurely established as a Jewish state, why do they take part in the government?

    This really seems like something that can be worked out, especially since in the USA we have ultra-orthodox Jews who seem to be more integrated into society than they are in Israel.
    Those who are in the government represent people who believe that Israel survives because they are praying, which is much more important than serving in the army.

    The waiting for the Messiach thing, is more in the Neturei Karta territory. these are the ultra orthodox guys you see in anti Israel protests, Iran's holocaust denial conference etc'. they'll team up with anyone who is against Israel, not because they care about them, but because they want Israel gone for their own religious reasons.

    As for the topic at hand, it's not that simple. do you really want tens of thousends of trained soldiers, which will be more loyal to their rabbis, than to the state? it's already a minor problem with religious soldiers who do serve in the army, but get conflicting messages from their rabbis.

    National service is a different issue. i certainly support having those who do not serve in the army, serve instead as a free labour force and it also might help them to integrate better with the rest of the society and perheps learn a profession. however, the problem starts much earlier own, with the ultra orthodox education system and trying to change it, is a much bigger hornets nest.

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    Senior Member Mu-Meson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tanks_alot View Post
    As for the topic at hand, it's not that simple. do you really want tens of thousends of trained soldiers, which will be more loyal to their rabbis, than to the state? it's already a minor problem with religious soldiers who do serve in the army, but get conflicting messages from their rabbis.
    That's an excellent point. I'd never looked at it that way. I suppose its a chicken-egg situation. Do they become integrated into society BY serving in the army, or do is serving in the army as sign of BEING integrated? Is army service a means to an end or an end in and of itself?

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    Senior Member OrangeWolf's Avatar
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    @tanks_alot, I admit I'm not all-knowing about the complexities behind the Tal law, but the principle of exemption for these religious folks seems wrong to begin with.

    I think your point of them entering the army but being loyal to their rabbi is a very relevant point indeed. It's a problem regardless of what you do but the status quo of preferential treatment towards the ultra-Orthodox just isn't right.

    Israel should be a lot tougher on these highly religious folk anyway, but I suppose it comes with being a Jewish state. I remember this guy who wouldn't shake the hands of women, I couldn't prevent thinking of him as a nutjob. When a Muslim imam pulls off something like this over here, it will be national news for a few days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mu-Meson View Post
    That's an excellent point. I'd never looked at it that way. I suppose its a chicken-egg situation. Do they become integrated into society BY serving in the army, or do is serving in the army as sign of BEING integrated? Is army service a means to an end or an end in and of itself?
    By the time army service comes up they are already too separated from ordinary Israeli life if you ask me. I dare say most Arabs are better integrated.

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    Any chance of getting an on line version of that Court decision ?

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    The court decision stated the law was unconstitutional.

    I suggest you all to read this report about the reaction of the Yeshivot students:




    Israeli ultra-Orthodox confident yeshiva students won't be drafted to IDF

    Reactions among Haredim to overturning of Tal Law range from indifference to prophecies of Armageddon.

    By [*******#434141]Yair Ettinger[/COLOR]

    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...o-idf-1.414219

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    IDF facing shortage of new soldiers

    In light of the anticipated shortfall of soldiers in key combat and other units - and as the Tal Law exempting the ultra-Orthodox from military service faces its expiration - this is the time for the IDF to reorganize army service across the board.


    By [*******#434141]Amos Harel[/COLOR]

    This week's High Court of Justice decision affords the state and the IDF the opportunity to reorganize army service across the board. Defense Minister Ehud Barak has lately been talking about a model that makes a lot of sense: Everyone will be obliged to enlist, but the IDF will have the option of choosing those it truly needs for full service. The others will do abridged national service (firefighting, police, emergency ambulance service) or community work (assistance to the elderly, etc.).

    According to Barak, the solution to the problem of discrimination that will arise - in terms of the length and difficulty of each type of service - will be found in the new quid pro quo: Soldiers, and particularly those in combat units, will receive, beginning in their second year of service, a salary that is close to the minimum wage. The money will be held for them until their discharge, at which time they will be able to use it for professional training or studies.
    http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-...diers-1.414587

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    The member that no one remembers. IconOfEvi's Avatar
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    Like others, I dont know much if anything about the complexities of their laws, but as I people, I would think they would be ashamed when Arabs, Druze, and Bedouins serve much more enthusiastically, while they leech off the state, and yet dont want it to exist.

    That Israel is surviving because of miracles from God alone and their prayers? Yes, perhaps Israel IS being saved by God's will, but not ONLY because! I am DAMN sure God doesn't make miracles happen because he feels like it on a random day. God does his work when you do yours. Israel's saviors have always been those who are there to step upto the plate.

    Perhaps Israel can do something like the Foreign Legion to at least buttress the falling numbers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tanks_alot View Post
    Those who are in the government represent people who believe that Israel survives because they are praying, which is much more important than serving in the army.

    The waiting for the Messiach thing, is more in the Neturei Karta territory. these are the ultra orthodox guys you see in anti Israel protests, Iran's holocaust denial conference etc'. they'll team up with anyone who is against Israel, not because they care about them, but because they want Israel gone for their own religious reasons.

    As for the topic at hand, it's not that simple. do you really want tens of thousends of trained soldiers, which will be more loyal to their rabbis, than to the state? it's already a minor problem with religious soldiers who do serve in the army, but get conflicting messages from their rabbis.

    National service is a different issue. i certainly support having those who do not serve in the army, serve instead as a free labour force and it also might help them to integrate better with the rest of the society and perheps learn a profession. however, the problem starts much earlier own, with the ultra orthodox education system and trying to change it, is a much bigger hornets nest.

    Excellent post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IconOfEvi View Post
    Like others, I dont know much if anything about the complexities of their laws, but as I people, I would think they would be ashamed when Arabs, Druze, and Bedouins serve much more enthusiastically, while they leech off the state, and yet dont want it to exist.

    That Israel is surviving because of miracles from God alone and their prayers? Yes, perhaps Israel IS being saved by God's will, but not ONLY because! I am DAMN sure God doesn't make miracles happen because he feels like it on a random day. God does his work when you do yours. Israel's saviors have always been those who are there to step upto the plate.

    Perhaps Israel can do something like the Foreign Legion to at least buttress the falling numbers?
    Druze and Jews are drafted. Arabs and Bedouins can voluntary.
    I think this ruling of the High Court should be seized as an historical opportunity to change the present situation and to enforce a military service on everybody. And an effort should be made to find a way for the Israeli Arabs to provide a national service if they don't want to volunteer to the IDF.

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    At least some kind of national service ought to be mandatory for the ultra-orthodox if they are exempted from military service. I just cannot comprehend how people can leech from the system so unabashedly and egoistically.

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