German government study: young Muslims resist integration, condone violence

[Sideline]

these muslims are not germans? if they are not, why the heck give them free stuff?

That is a question best asked to these 'German' muslims. How do they feel about the German society/culture? Do they embrace it?

EDIT: @ggK- honestly, I would like to know, do you think they embrace the German culture? OR only embrace the "free stuff"?

[picanha the second]

The problem is already well well known and discussed to death. The new reveleation is only that slowly it is publicly more accepted to state the obvious (that a good quart of an immigrant group is troubled or ****e to it). That is a first step. One has only to be careful about people now misusing this new freedom of speech to stigmatise a whole ethnic group in general. It all also depends on your education. The turkish and MEA friends I have are all well behaved and have nice manners, speak german fluently are integrated and have jobs. But the occasional "der Türke da" they get to hear, although not racist or hugely insulting, is a hindrance in fully arriving here. Imagine you been born in the US living 30 years there and then at work they would only refer to you as "the german" (sometimes with a negative connotation). The lower you go on the educational ladder the more losers you'll find. This is also true for the german side. And again not universally appliccable as many uneducated poor people are also good at heart. A big well known factor is ghettoisazation. But then even the multikulti greens choose to live in a mainly german neighborhood rather than among migrants. So eventually you create lots of "on their own" societies that compose themselves on a basis of ethnicity or religiosity. That the vast majority is low educated adds to the archaic structure and problems this creates furthering the distance from the average population.

[tluassa]

The problem is already well well known and discussed to death. The new reveleation is only that slowly it is publicly more accepted to state the obvious (that a good quart of an immigrant group is troubled or ****e to it). That is a first step. One has only to be careful about people now misusing this new freedom of speech to stigmatise a whole ethnic group in general. It all also depends on your education. The turkish and MEA friends I have are all well behaved and have nice manners, speak german fluently are integrated and have jobs. But the occasional "der Türke da" they get to hear, although not racist or hugely insulting, is a hindrance in fully arriving here. Imagine you been born in the US living 30 years there and then at work they would only refer to you as "the german" (sometimes with a negative connotation). The lower you go on the educational ladder the more losers you'll find. This is also true for the german side. And again not universally appliccable as many uneducated poor people are also good at heart. A big well known factor is ghettoisazation. But then even the multikulti greens choose to live in a mainly german neighborhood rather than among migrants. So eventually you create lots of "on their own" societies that compose themselves on a basis of ethnicity or religiosity. That the vast majority is low educated adds to the archaic structure and problems this creates furthering the distance from the average population.

As long as half of "the Turks" / Arabs / Libanese / whatever react with anger, or are totally bewildered when you refer to them as Germans, there is not other Way than to distinguish them from Germans by their looks. They have to make clear to which culture they feel they belong. Germans can't. There is no Way for a German to tell before speaking to somebody, which is hardly possible or practical in "real life" to do this with every "foreigner" you meet !
I also sense that many are hyper-sensitive towards the issue, and so easily frustrated by a few German Idiots calls so its no wonder they feel alienated. As if "ethnic Germans" would not experience the same "bullying" or every day frustrations on the very same level. They mostly already **** up in pre-school by choosing the "gangster Way" and later feel rebuffed for using slang-words and not speaking German properly, and than the spiral is already in motion. Nobody here ever would employ somebody using "alta", "lan", or whatever "turkish slang". Given the sad state of our current education system in Germany, its no wonder that things are how they are today. That to correct this problem would cost (costs !) so much money that it makes immigration of all People without University degree a loss for the state should tell us a lot.

[picanha the second]

Basically it boils down to not being able to select immigrants and not facing the challenges with the ones already here. I believe Germany is the only country that has Familienzusammenführung and thus further complicating everything. Maybe in the future this important topic can be discussed more closer to reality instead of being blocked off immediately when just hearing the word "selection". What certain groups don't grasp is that denying wrong social developments don't fit their agenda is in fact counter productive. Also a certain amount of low qualified people is also needed just not 80% or whatever the numbers are.
Anyway my point just was to be happy with this new openness but at the same time being careful not to let this discussion slip in the total opposite direction. Let's keep it balanced. For Germany a huge achievement and a first step to the solution.

[tluassa]

I see a lot of progress beeing made in the last decade, that is for sure. The study also has its positive sides, and these should be looked at as well.

"Indeed 78 percent of all German Muslims say its preferrable to integrate oneself into the German society"
^
This.

[Rosbach]

resisting integration is like resisting opportunity. Like in school graduating with good grades, and a good job, following. So, what will their future be like?

[Kombattant]

resisting integration is like resisting opportunity. Like in school graduating with good grades, and a good job, following. So, what will their future be like?

Wellfare....

[Rosbach]

Wellfare....

Agreed. I know a lot of colleagues who are from Poland, Iraq, Pallestine, Turkey, Afghanistan and they are very competent in their jobs. Wonder why they can´t contribute more to "integration" in their community?

[Rosbach]

I´d feel dependend on welfare as insulting as "integration" as offensive. Why not sticking to one´s "culture", being proud of it, and invite people. "Integration" as a term has the pungent odour of "obey and consume". These "young moslems" we are talking about are loosers and seek an excuse for their self inflicted failure in religious terms. They´d failed even in a moslem society.

[muck]

I see a lot of progress beeing made in the last decade, that is for sure. The study also has its positive sides, and these should be looked at as well.

"Indeed 78 percent of all German Muslims say its preferrable to integrate oneself into the German society"
^
This.

Indeed, but then again that is an overall figure. The situation seems to be much worse among young Muslims, so again I feel urged to note: They've got to get their radical ideas from somewhere. If their parents were shining examples of integration should it not be keeping their children away from radicalism?

Recently I got to read some fascinating accounts on the first generation of immigrants in the late 1950s... Even though racism was more prevalent back in those days both the immigrants and the Germans seem to agree that they got better along with each other. Even those who had no plans to stay here beyond their contracts were very open towards German culture - for example by embracing the traditional Rhineish carnival - and the Germans showed more appreciation for the immigrants contributions to society.
Two events made matters fairly worse: Palestinian terrorism in Germany, as well as the German Left's siding with the PLO, raised animosity. And then the Iranian revolution got to urge Muslims from all over the world to go back to their roots.

[tluassa]

Just look at it. There is no real discrimination if People do integrate, and the share of "immigrants" that do get a University diploma is even above the German average. Sadly the statistic is does not show the nationality or cultural background. But I can tell you that it has rather less to do with the religious background and much more with the cultural and social background of immigrants.

Asians and Eastern Europeans for example, (and of course all the People from the other European countries that can and do move in considerable numbers) do not have big problems integrating and often outperforming the "average German".

[DS73]

Agreed. I know a lot of colleagues who are from Poland, Iraq, Pallestine, Turkey, Afghanistan and they are very competent in their jobs. Wonder why they can´t contribute more to "integration" in their community?

Because on a way to do so, they are stopped by "knights of justice" of specific political parties. If to look behind words and morals, your country just like the rest of western Europe has well developed business of "helping those in need".
I am talking about salaries ~100k or more of people who's job is to talk. About nothing basically, because the accountability or demand of any outcome is 0. I am talking about "development projects", where "newbies" get serious "flexible credits" to start their "business" with corresponding "processing costs" to relevant "arbiters". And subsequent bankruptcies which are levered as mere "social development costs".
I am talking about multiple "awareness projects" when some hefty long "lectures" are presented to empty rooms.
I am talking about building reasonable reliable voting base which won't go anywhere, because these new citizens are dependent on the specific "class protection".

Stopping starts from the beginning by sabotaging real integration (like ridiculing demands of "one foreigner per school project", so foreigners won't get an opportunity to be lost in separation, or in usual for teens "group opposition"), or quite usual practice of apartheid when authorities with an easy hand of "multicultural" proponents establish specific ethnic societies which hijack all interactions. In Belgium the situation is arguably worst of all, where for example AEL has successfully highjacked "muslim connections". Their leader has openly wrote in his book who and when has helped him to get this far.(of course in classical maneer by critisizing helpers that they didn't do enough).

[ggk]

That is a question best asked to these 'German' muslims. How do they feel about the German society/culture? Do they embrace it?

EDIT: @ggK- honestly, I would like to know, do you think they embrace the German culture? OR only embrace the "free stuff"?

this question probably was asked a lot by alot of people

"why didnt they embrace the German culture?"

my question would probably sound like this
"how the heck are we going to embrace german culture? for a start, can you understand their jokes?"

[junglejim]

@GGK, the level of political correctness in the west is in the level that is way out of our Asian heads to digest. To the point that it would seem to be detrimental to their government or society. Both our countries are open to immigration but I think we have limits to how much non integration will be accepted by our society.

We have immigration policies in place that would shock an appall those from the west. Like how Malaysia treats the illegal Filipino and other immigrants and how the Philippines enforces the limits of the Muslim autonomy in the south.

[Sideline]

this question probably was asked a lot by alot of people

"why didnt they embrace the German culture?"
my question would probably sound like this
"how the heck are we going to embrace german culture? for a start, can you understand their jokes?"

OK, I understand the question. My question would now be .... WHY? Of all the places they could possibly choose, why pick Germany? I mean did they see/read pictures/books of/about Germany? Where there others prospecting the move with which to discuss how they admire and longfully wait for the day to GO to Germany, and be GERMAN? Did they do it because they liked the lederhosen, the cultures appreciation for beer, or perhaps the German cultural appreciation for design combined with precision craftmanship? Was it specific German laws, or the way they conduct their society specificly? Lots of questions. They can only say/know whether they appreciate Germany enough to feel German.

EDIT: Being German is much more than a geographical location.