My opinion is of the same as in Egypt and Libya and for everything else in life.Originally Posted by Hollis
Something that is meant to happen let it happen.
If you try to postpone or block it it will come back to bite you worse in the future.
If the Egyptians or Libyans or Tunisians or.... want Islamic regimes let them have it. In 30-40 years from now their new revolutions will be about actual democratic regimes. If the "West" try to prevent Islamic regimes from happening we will have "Irans" all over the middle east and North Africa or even worse "Somalias".
I tend to agree with you. Except sometimes with our current and newer weapons systems, that can add a lot to the inability to wait for a natural change to happen for the better. Sometime helping is like being co-dependent, it just makes change more difficult and adds to making things worse longer. The Islamist, IMHO, is part of filling the void left by the end of the cold war. It was always there, but was suppressed by the Ba'athists.
I try to go with that but Edmund Burke ruins it for me everytime.
Last I checked he never fought in a single one of England's wars.
The U.S did a big mistake when she called Mubarak to leave. The West doesn't understand that there will not be democracy in the near future in any Muslim country. It took the Europeans hundred years to have a democracy,so for the arabs it will probably take even more. Now you have an Islamic majority in the Egyptian parliament.
I don't see how that affects the relevance of the statement?
The statement that I know, that you know, that I know
Well friend...don't gots the monies.
For some reason I always disagree with you. At one point you are saying let it happen in a natural way (agreed) but as in case Libya the west went direct with the rebels and Egypt managed a facelift with military still there but gave up a good friend Mubarak.
There is nothing wrong with letting nature take its course. If helping in Libya was supposed to provide leverage for the future government so far it does not. The west just did the Saudis a favour.
For an open system to take hold (semi democracy) it needs a period of peacefull development and not violent changes. Take the case of Turkey. Strong man for years and avoided WWII made good alliences with US and is on the way. Similar Egypt and Jordan.
Yeah, those Muslims don't deserve self determination, so just impose some ruthless dictators on them and be done with it.
No taxation without representation.
I also wish for a resurgent Ottoman Empire.
YES, You should help only people that help themselves.
Kadafi was going to fall in the end , the west just did not all the country to be raised to the ground before it did. No mood for seeing literally all of Libya heading in boats for Europe. The stream of immigrants was already strong even without the Libyan war.
In the Arab psyche the idea that Islam(Islamic regime, shariah...ect) will elevate them once more to a superpower is an obsession.
They should experience Islamic regimes in their true form and when they are fed up with that nonsense may be they start more moderate paths, democracy and secularism.
Until then they will be dreaming for the "Khalifah".
In the end, can you really harp on them about this thought process?
For quite a while, they went from being a bunch of desert tribes to controlling quite a large portion of the world. Pointing out that they could have done this conquest without Islam, or that their whole victory was a fluke because it arrived on the tail end of a massive Byzantine-Persian War that left both of them crippled and exhausted beyond repair won't get you anywhere. They've experienced nothing but decline and defeat ever since they ran out of countries to loot of knowledge and income to fund further conquests, and countries that were finally able to stiffen and repulse them. So its natural that they want to return to their era, even if it was all due to a fluke.
If you say that an Islamic leadership will give them self determination,so what can i tell you,man...they will not have any freedom(i'm not saying that under Mubarak they had freedom,but it will be even worse under an Islamic leadership).
Depends on the kind of "Islamic leadership". You do know that some of the largest Muslims countries have democracy, right?
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