The Role Ex-Nazis Played in Early West Germany

[JCR]

Just Browsing should just browse and not post

[JustBrowsing]

Now give me a break. 40+ years of division

40 years of being sponsored by two world superpowers economically and politically. Not bad for trying to exterminate several nations. And it was a great act of mercy that allowed the German state which formed in 1871 to continue existence. Another option-restoring to states before 1871 was also possible.

loss of ~50% of territory

Germany never lost 50% of its territory, unless you count Nazi annexations after 1938 in Poland, Bohemia, Soviet Union. Or claim Austria is part of Germany. Which I think only are hardcore nationalist or Nazi would claim.

(and were still missing half of Poland until today ^^)

You miss occupying Polish territory and people?

mass killings

Only isolated incidents on small scale. Nothing similar to what Germany did. If Soviets and Poles were to be to Germans as Germans were to them, there would be no Germans today.

and millions of dead from "resettlement" and deportations

Actually 400,000 mostly dead from war time conditions(which wouldn't have happened if not for German war). Most of them btw Nazi voters and colonists. Hard to feel sorry for such people.

l

Planned starving of PoW's after the War.

Never happened. Only revisionist historians and nationalists do claim that. If you want to see real mistreatment of POWs look at what Germany did to Soviet POW's.

If anything, as I already said before, one could have put more Nazi's on trial.

One could have also:
-forced Germany to pay compensation which it didn't pay to Poland or Greece
-force Germany to return stolen art (for example Polish art plundered by Nazis is still held by Germany today)
-declare Wehrmacht to be an criminal organisation(as it was)
-not elect mass murderers to government posts(as German people did, see the Wola Massacre)
-not allow to elect people advocating genocide of Poles to ministerial posts(see Oberlander)
-not sponsor German economy for over 50 years

So as you see much more could have been done.

One could say that Germany is even "punished" today while all Nazis are dead or on the brink of dying

Since even today Germany didn't deal with its Nazi past completely I see nothing wrong with that. Especially since its economic well being is directly connected with being allowed to go away free from destroying much of Central and Eastern Europe.

Oh come on, it's pretty obvious the guy has a problem with Germany and modern Germans.

Considering the fact that Germany tried to exterminate Poles, to which I belong why shouldn't I? Especially since it awarded people participating in this with ministerial posts.

[Musashi]

Dumber than a bag of hammers even.

Sire... he is not dumb, he is just flaming. He has not posted news taken directly out of his sphincter that Poland had been defeated offering no resistance in 1939, as you have done in some topic. It was so überidiotic, I did not even want to comment that. He is able to provide sources, what cannot be said about you. You see, well-educated people are supposed to do something like that.

It's also noticeable his English is very good (->how many foreign languages do you speak?), what cannot be said about many Poles participating in this forum Generally talking, that guy has a plenty of knowledge and he is much better educated than you are. If you are incapable of noticing that, say: "Houston, we've had a problem". Flaming should not be confused with being dumb.
I don't agree with many of his statements but I don't call people who are much more educated than me "dumb". You should not do it, either. It's just a polite advice.

[Connaught Ranger]

40 years of being sponsored by two world superpowers economically and politically. Not bad for trying to exterminate several nations. And it was a great act of mercy that allowed the German state which formed in 1871 to continue existence. Another option-restoring to states before 1871 was also possible.

Germany never lost 50% of its territory, unless you count Nazi annexations after 1938 in Poland, Bohemia, Soviet Union. Or claim Austria is part of Germany. Which I think only are hardcore nationalist or Nazi would claim.


You miss occupying Polish territory and people?



Only isolated incidents on small scale. Nothing similar to what Germany did. If Soviets and Poles were to be to Germans as Germans were to them, there would be no Germans today.

Actually 400,000 mostly dead from war time conditions(which wouldn't have happened if not for German war). Most of them btw Nazi voters and colonists. Hard to feel sorry for such people.

l
Never happened. Only revisionist historians and nationalists do claim that. If you want to see real mistreatment of POWs look at what Germany did to Soviet POW's.




One could have also:
-forced Germany to pay compensation which it didn't pay to Poland or Greece
-force Germany to return stolen art (for example Polish art plundered by Nazis is still held by Germany today)
-declare Wehrmacht to be an criminal organisation(as it was)
-not elect mass murderers to government posts(as German people did, see the Wola Massacre)
-not allow to elect people advocating genocide of Poles to ministerial posts(see Oberlander)
-not sponsor German economy for over 50 years

So as you see much more could have been done.


Since even today Germany didn't deal with its Nazi past completely I see nothing wrong with that. Especially since its economic well being is directly connected with being allowed to go away free from destroying much of Central and Eastern Europe.


Considering the fact that Germany tried to exterminate Poles, to which I belong why shouldn't I? Especially since it awarded people participating in this with ministerial posts.

Ah! a "Poland Strong Fanboy," that explains why you are trolling this thread.

[KoTeMoRe]

It's normally very rare, but I do happen to agree with you.

Humans killing humans and feeling guilt...sign of humanity. Humans taking advantage of that guilt, again sign of humanity.

Just Browsing...yes a lot of "de-something" are basically propaganda. Lower tiers of the former regimes are evicted from public life but they keep their reach. Mid level bureaucrats tend to gain momentum and the figures get deposed. It's simply a "mille-feuille" you eat the top but still get the core. That's how an historical society works. An ideological, ahistorical one, tends to purge each and every element of the old regime. Such regimes vary from faith based genocidary practices (basically monotheisms) to ideologic dictatorships (think of Pol Pot).

Tluassa: 12/15 million?

[Connaught Ranger]

Sire... he is not dumb, he is just flaming. He has not posted news taken directly out of his sphincter that Poland had been defeated offering no resistance, as you have done in some topic. It was so überidiotic, I did not even want to comment that. It's also noticeable his English is very good (->how many foreign languages do you speak?), what cannot be said about many Poles participating in this forum Generally talking, that guy has a plenty of knowledge as is much better educated than you are. Flaming should not be confused with being dumb.
I don't agree with many of his statements but don't call people who are much more educated than you "dumb". If you are incapable of noticing that, say: "Houston, we've had a problem".

You are wrong, sunshine,

I cited in a thread the factual instances of some Poles being in collusion with the Germans.

My source being:-

"BURN AFTER READING" by Ladislas Farago

A Macfadden book first printed in the USA in 1961, my copy printed in 1963.

As for languages I get by with German & Romania, but what that has to do with

the topic in hand is neither here nor there.

"Houstan?" you are not going to Texas, by any chance "butthurt old bean"?

Connaught Ranger

[Steak-Sauce]

Considering the fact that Germany tried to exterminate Poles, to which I belong why shouldn't I? Especially since it awarded people participating in this with ministerial posts.

Your argumentation is severly flawed, my young Polish neighbor.

Why should you have problems with somone from Germany, who was born in 1986, for example? Neither me, my brother, mom or dad awarded anyone from the NSDAP, SS or Wehrmacht with ministerial posts. I'm in no way responsible for what has happened in Nazi-Germany or post-war Germany. Yet you're trying to put the blame for the horrible crimes committed during the war on every German generation. So, if you come to me and say "Hey German, I've got a problem with you, cause you're German!" you earn nothing more than a "Fvck off, asshole."

The second problem is that you see a post-war Germany without acknowledging that France, UK, the US and USSR were all busy supporting this very same Germany. Instead to ask them "And what's your excuse?" you're trying - again - to put the blame on only one part of the overall problem, i.e. the most easy one. Your argumentation is lacking the role a divided Germany played during the Cold War, 1945 to 1989.

And finally the most amusing (at least to me) part of your outrage: you've got a problem with a modern (read: 2012) Germany? Seriously? So?

You're exactly like the Israeli I once asked why his life is literally formed by German products, even if he hates modern Germans so much for what happened during 12 years of Nazi rule. He couldn't give me an answer, and neither can you.

[JustBrowsing]

Your argumentation is severly flawed, my young Polish neighbor.

Oh I am in my 30s....So not young

Why should you have problems with somone from Germany, who was born in 1986, for example?

But I am not having problems with an individual but with a state. Different things.

Neither me, my brother, mom or dad awarded anyone from the NSDAP, SS or Wehrmacht with ministerial posts.

It's good for your family. But I am certain that people who voted for Adenauer, Oberlander, Reinefarth are still alive. As are people who in German national poll in 2003 voted Adenauer the greatest German of all time.

I'm in no way responsible for what has happened in Nazi-Germany or post-war Germany

Good for you. But not all Germans are you.

Yet you're trying to put the blame for the horrible crimes committed during the war on every German generation.

Any German generation has a chance to break off with the Nazi past of German state by correcting the wrong of the past, not honoring Nazis and other German nationalists or those who allowed Nazis back to public life, returning stolen art, paying long due compensations(the lack of which allowed for German to achieve economic prosperity) etc.

So, if you come to me and say "Hey German, I've got a problem with you, cause you're German!" you earn nothing more than a "Fvck off, asshole."

But I am not coming to you.

The second problem is that you see a post-war Germany without acknowledging that France, UK, the US and USSR were all busy supporting this very same Germany.

Germany is directly responsible and it is a discussion about Germany. It were German voters who elected Oberlander, Reinhfarth, Adenauer-not voters from UK or USA.

Instead to ask them "And what's your excuse?" you're trying - again - to put the blame on only one part of the overall problem, i.e. the most easy one.

It's not the UK or France that were engaged in destruction of Poland and genocide of Poles.So there is no reason to include them.

And finally the most amusing (at least to me) part of your outrage: you've got a problem with a modern (read: 2012) Germany? Seriously? So?

Since modern Germany still honors people who were responsible for letting Nazis back into power, still funds organizations founded by former Nazis, still hasn't dealt with issues such as war compensation or plunder of art.
And most important reason why:because Germany often tries to paint itself as clean and as a country that dealt with its Nazi past. Which is completely false.

You're exactly like the Israeli I once asked why his life is literally formed by German products, even if he hates modern Germans so much for what happened during 12 years of Nazi rule. He couldn't give me an answer, and neither can you.

Oh but I can give you very detailed and extensive answers.

[Connaught Ranger]

Oh I am in my 30s....So not young


But I am not having problems with an individual but with a state. Different things.

It's good for your family. But I am certain that people who voted for Adenauer, Oberlander, Reinefarth are still alive. As are people who in German national poll in 2003 voted Adenauer the greatest German of all time.


Good for you. But not all Germans are you.
Any German generation has a chance to break off with the Nazi past of German state by correcting the wrong of the past, not honoring Nazis and other German nationalists or those who allowed Nazis back to public life, returning stolen art, paying long due compensations(the lack of which allowed for German to achieve economic prosperity) etc.

But I am not coming to you.

Germany is directly responsible and it is a discussion about Germany. It were German voters who elected Oberlander, Reinhfarth, Adenauer-not voters from UK or USA.


It's not the UK or France that were engaged in destruction of Poland and genocide of Poles.So there is no reason to include them.

Since modern Germany honors people who were responsible for letting Nazis back into power,funds organisations founded by former Nazis, still hasn't dealt with issues such as war compensation or plunder of art. Why not?
And most important reason why:because Germany often tries to paint itself as clean and as a country that dealt with its Nazi past. Which is completely false.

Oh but I can give you very detailed and extensive answers.

If you keep repeating it to yourself it sounds very convincing bro!

[JustBrowsing]

If you keep repeating it to yourself it sounds very convincing bro!

It seems that soon you will join me

[JCR]

You are simply a racist on a very high moral horse.

[JustBrowsing]

You are simply a racist on a very high moral horse.

Certainly not, I respect those Germans who showed honor or courage such as Fritz Kolbe who spied for Allies, or the Wehrmacht deserters(out of 18.200.000 soldiers, 100.000 deserted).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Kolbe

[JCR]

Your goal is not different from those the Nazis had towards Poland. Destroy us as a nation with a history, taint everything so you can obtain a morally superior position. We should basically apologize for everything that ever happened. This is an endless circle and the likes of you will only stop with never ending demands until we cease being german. Forget it.

[JustBrowsing]

Your goal is not different from those the Nazis had towards Poland. Destroy us as a nation with a history, taint everything so you can obtain a morally superior position. We should basically apologize for everything that ever happened. This is an endless circle and the likes of you will only stop with never ending demands until we cease being german. Forget it.

The Nazis wanted to exterminate physically Poles, not base their history on peace and condemnation of racism and nationalism.
Germans are free to base their historical heroes on those who resisted nationalism and Nazism like Wehrmacht deserters or champions like Fritz Kolbe.

taint everything so you can

I don't see the purpose. All the things I see as harmful to Germans are already tainted-for example Wehrmacht.

[JCR]

We are basically free to do as you please. Thank you for that. I am only glad you are a minority among poles. If not, then maybe we shoud simply stop trying to accomodate you and look for more "traditional" approaches to Poland