Which is Faster - Bullet Penetration or Pain?

[lotsoffreetime]

I'm curious - Does the people who got shot in the head (be it suicide or war), assuming they die instantly, feels pain before they die?

Confines:

1. As to pain, i would like to frame it within the confines of the time it takes from the bullet touching the skin of the head, afferent nerve carrying impulses to the pain center of the brain and finally registering pain (We will not take into account the process of relaying efferent impulse to the organs responsible for reflex here).

2. Bullet penetration here is defined from the moment the bullet touches the skin of the head until it causes death.

3. We shall assume that the shot occurred point-blank.


Manipulated Elements:

1. Muzzle velocity of bullets of different caliber.

Possible Refinements:

1. Should we exclude shotgun (buckshot) blast? Does the fact that it splatters the head all over the place would prevent the signal from carried out?

My Attempt at Answering:


1. From internet sources : Speed of pain impulses is about 100m/s, but another one on the same page says it's 0.61 m/s ??? Regardless, I'm taking the 100m/s one because it will give the bullet some measure of challenge.

2. Slowest projectile from the wikipedia link says that black powder projectile moves at 120m/s.

3. Based on measure of velocity alone, even the slowest bullet velocity is faster than pain impulse.

4. Assuming humans will die immediately when cavity is formed within the brain, I therefore decide in favour of bullet velocity.

http://www.painstudy.com/NonDrugRemedies/Pain/p10.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_velocity


I have never used firearms before, and no, this is not my homework. I am constantly amazed with the breadth of knowledge of our BTDT members and some very scientific and intellectual members in here. It would be a waste if we don't pour our limited knowledge to produce something coherent that may prevent suicides, perhaps? To that scientist who would probably get an idea for his research from this thread, you're welcome .

[Navel Lint]

..........

Let me read it thoroughly first.

[Blue Monkey]

The speed at which the bullet penetrates is much faster than the time it takes for the electrical impulses to reach the pain-center of the brain.

[Navel Lint]

4. Assuming humans will die immediately when cavity is formed within the brain, I therefore decide in favour of bullet velocity.

With that assumption, I would say that you have your answer. Also assuming that the pain signals dont travel in an exactly straight line and the bullet can maintain its initial velocity or close enough too it thru that short distance of flesh and bone, then the bullet will reach its intended target(death) before the pain signal(registering) if it has to travel the same radius length.

[Redox]

Your assumption that the person is dead the moment the skull is penetrated is a rather big assumption. Actually it is so random that it makes the rest of the calculations kinda invalid.

[Migs]

I'm curious - Does the people who got shot in the head (be it suicide or war), assuming they die instantly, feels pain before they die?

I know of one case where a man was shot point blank in the skull with a .22 magnum from one of those mini-revolvers.
The bullet entered his skull and the bullet lodged halfway inside just under his brain.
Lucky son of a bitch lived and recovered (although with some cranial nerve damage to limbs), docs left the bullet in.
Said he didn't feel pain..although he could feel it, but does remember seeing blood spurt out of his face like a squirt gun.
Back of his partner's car got a new red interior as they fled to the hospital.

Another one where a man (attacker) took five .25 acp bullets to the head, two penetrated entirely.
He lived for a day before dying. Not sure he felt much of that..his brain was probably focused more on survival than pain.

[big_les]

Shot placement is key - anything other than a roughly centrally-placed rifle bullet at around 2400fps+ or shotgun buckshot risks not only pain but survival with serious brain damage, impaired motor function, loss of vision, hearing etc etc. Placement is still important - I've read many unsuccessful attempts, including a guy who had to shoot himself three times with a shotgun, including dragging himself back to his car for more ammo. I s**t you not.

But otherwise, you have answered your own question as others have pointed out. Firearms (specifically the two types I've referred to) are perhaps the only easily accessible (depending where you live) instant and painless method of suicide. There's not much more to say than that.

[C.Puffs]

I've read many unsuccessful attempts, including a guy who had to shoot himself three times with a shotgun, including dragging himself back to his car for more ammo. I s**t you not.

Ouch. Talk about a lousy way to go.

[big_les]

Ouch. Talk about a lousy way to go.

This is the case - the wound photo is not present in this archived version, but the live version is behind a subscribe wall;

http://web.archive.org/web/201106061...n/herdson.html

I was wrong about reloading from rounds in the vehicle, but he did walk back to it before the second attempt.

[Rattfink]

Well I don't know what to make of this whole question but a big factor is shock: At times when people receive massive trauma it is not immediately painful because the body releases chemicals like endorphins (Also from fear or exercise) which act like opiates. Its a survival mechanism. It allows a wounded animal perhaps escape to safety before being crippled with pain.

I remember a gruesome video on shark week when I was very young of a woman diver whose leg was nearly severed mid calf by a shark bite. She was on deck bleeding profusely examining her own wound in a very matter of fact, analytical manner showing no sign of pain. I bet it caught up with her eventually though. In this case a shark bite was faster than the speed of pain.

[HK in AK]

I think this will answer your question about being shot in the head...THIS VIDEO IS NSFW!!! VERY GRUESOME.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=11c_1297649595

[usa320]

we had a cop here in the city get shot in the back of the head with a 5.56 round fired by a 14 year old out of a second floor window... It took a good chunk of his head off...yet he survived, spent only a year in rehab and is now working at the precinct, and is expected to be back on the road in the next year. So assuming that as soon as the bullet creates a cavity in the brain, the person will die, is a really big, and incorrect, assumption.

[Blue Monkey]

We had this kid here in Brazil, a recently drafted youngster in the army. Tried to kill himself with a shot of FAL to the face. Survived and had his face rebuilt by some talented team of plastic surgeons. To anyone interested in seeing pictures, search for the following term "tiro de FAL na cara", remember to use the quotation marks for a more accurate result.

This is a picture of him, recovering after the facial reconstruction:

[junglejim]

Pain is part of a survival system that tells you something is wrong, if your brain is focused on other parts of survival it will block it off. I have a friend that in the middle of a gun fight got shot in the hand. He only felt it after he killed the guy with a head shot and then tried to reload and felt numb and then pain when he looked and saw he was hit on the part of his left hand where the wrist watch would be.

[Bacon]

I think this will answer your question about being shot in the head...THIS VIDEO IS NSFW!!! VERY GRUESOME.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=11c_1297649595

Whats the background on this video?