WW2 German Special Operations Forces (or lack there of)

[LineDoggie]

Indeed one should never forget-no matter if there were individual exceptions to soldier's behaviour as in case of Allies in their fight to oppose German aggression and genocide or standard behaviour as in case of Nazi forces led by the ideology of racist war of genocide aiming to exterminate whole nations.

Now that we have cleared that up I have good news. I have access to publication about atrocities of Brandenburgers and will translate some soon.

Storm, stop crayoning this thread. Boy scouts in arms are as legitimate a target as Hitler Jugend with panzerfausts were.

[Polarisbrian]

Indeed one should never forget-no matter if there were individual exceptions to soldier's behaviour as in case of Allies in their fight to oppose German aggression and genocide or standard behaviour as in case of Nazi forces led by the ideology of racist war of genocide aiming to exterminate whole nations.

Now that we have cleared that up I have good news. I have access to publication about atrocities of Brandenburgers and will translate some soon.

I don't want this thread to be derailed like many others here. It's not about war crimes and atrocities. Which will surely drag down this thread.

The purpose is to discuss German Special Operations forces during WW2, units, personal, missions etc.

[JustBrowsing]

Which will surely drag down this thread.

The purpose is to discuss German Special Operations forces during WW2, units, personal, missions etc.

Brandenburgers committed war crimes during their missions. As did other units devoted to special operations(for example Mountain Divisions). I see no reason not to mention them, that would white-wash their history. Don't worry-I will focus on mass murder and extermination by those units only.

[LineDoggie]

I don't want this thread to be derailed like many others here. It's not about war crimes and atrocities. Which will surely drag down this thread.

The purpose is to discuss German Special Operations forces during WW2, units, personal, missions etc.

judging from every thread hes posted in thats not going to happen. hes on a Mission to crayon

[JustBrowsing]

Boy scouts in arms are as legitimate a target as Hitler Jugend with panzerfausts were.

Disarmed boy scouts are not.
POWs and civilians are not.
For example in Wisław Wielka on 3rd September Ebbinghaus murdered four civilians, including a Jewish family: Karola Mrzyk (29), Józef Silbersteina (53), Kurt Silbersteina (20), Ruta Silberstein (20)


In Katowice people murdered by Ebbinghaus were first sought by lists-they included local political activists and former Polish fighters from 1918 Uprising against Germany. The unit assisted in gathering them and mass executions.

[LineDoggie]

Disarmed boy scouts are not.
POWs and civilians are not.
For example in Wisław Wielka on 3rd September Ebbinghaus murdered four civilians, including a Jewish family: Karola Mrzyk (29), Józef Silbersteina (53), Kurt Silbersteina (20), Ruta Silberstein (20)


In Katowice people murdered by Ebbinghaus were first sought by lists-they included local political activists and former Polish fighters from 1918 Uprising against Germany. The unit assisted in gathering them and mass executions.

Civilians with Arms are Francs-Tireurs and could be executed under the geneva/hague treaty of the time.

But again your purpose is to crayon like a child in these threads Good Luck as I predict you will be soon gone from here for trolling.

[Musashi]

I must say it still baffles me that when you consider the amount of damage caused and manpower tied up by partisans in Yugoslavia, French Resistance, The Home Army in Poland and other such forces. The Germans never considered creating a "stay behind unit". Men specially trained in sabotage, direct action and soldiers who could live off the land. I know communications and other logistical concerns would have to be worked out, as would how to retrieve such an unit after the mission was over. Not that this would have changed the outcome of the war, but it would have been a thorn in the side of the Allies and tied up Allied troops to hunt them down, that otherwise could have been on the front lines.

They did. You just don't know about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf

Sounds like the Japanese model of how to use highly trained paratroopers. Wasn't it sometime in July or August 1945 that the Japanese sent their most highly trained paratroop unit the Giretsu to Okinawa to destroy B-29's and create as much chaos as possible. IIRC only one plane made it to Okinawa and the Japanese traded the lives of 160 of their best men for 9 American bombers and some destroyed fueldumps. It was a one way mission.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giretsu_Kuteitai

[Flagg]

I agree with James in that many special operations forces /units in WWII were sort of ad hoc vetted specialist infantry.

One area of future study for me is the Alamo Scouts.

They seem to have had considerable success with "generation 1.0" DA, SR, UW, FID, and even hostage rescue with Cabanatuan.

The Philippines theatre of operations in WWII seems to only have a few books/resources about an AO that saw quite a bit of SF/SO type ops.

With the many successes of the Alamo Scouts combined with their crazy low casualty rate its very surprisi.g more hasnt been written about those guys. They certainly seem worthy of it and worthy of being considered an important part of the US Army SF heritage and bloodline.

[Mordoror]

"One of many actions from the opening days of the campaign was the seizure of the Meuse bridge in the Dutch town of Gennep. An 8 man team, led by Leutnant Wilhelm Walther, was given the task of capturing the bridge intact. At 2am on May 10, Walther's team, now disguised as Dutch military police escorting German prisoners, made their assault. Two guard posts were destroyed, but three Brandenburgers were wounded and the team was pinned down. Dressed in a Dutch uniform, Walther advanced across the bridge. The confused defenders hesitated, allowing the rest of the team to take them out, seizing the bridge and disabling the detonators. Many more operations like this took place over the course of the campaign. However on another bridge, Brandenburgers were arrested by Dutch troops and shot as spies." - Wiki Example of a small man unit of Brandenburgers, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburgers

During the invasion of France there were insisting rumors of german soldiers disguised in French gendarmes that misled some military columns in traps/ambushes or removed/changed road signs

http://marechaussee.skyrock.com/2776...-Francais.html

check the picture there: it shows a "gendarme" arrested by 2 germa soldiers
but some details do not fit in (the boots for example that look a lot like german issued boots)

[Mordoror]

I must say it still baffles me that when you consider the amount of damage caused and manpower tied up by partisans in Yugoslavia, French Resistance, The Home Army in Poland and other such forces. The Germans never considered creating a "stay behind unit". Men specially trained in sabotage, direct action and soldiers who could live off the land. I know communications and other logistical concerns would have to be worked out, as would how to retrieve such an unit after the mission was over. Not that this would have changed the outcome of the war, but it would have been a thorn in the side of the Allies and tied up Allied troops to hunt them down, that otherwise could have been on the front lines.

Hum operation werewulf ? : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf
still unclear if it was really implemented or planned or if it is an WWII urban legend

[Laptop Hobo]

Im sure this thread is seconds away from locking which is horrible because it started so good......but......when speaking of spec ops groups not fighting to the rules of war or committing war crimes isnt that like being shocked when the girl wearing a mini-skirt on the corner and no panties asks for cash for a date? I mean you have to know if you place an outnumbered group of hardcases behind the lines in a no-win situation what is going to happen if they get cornered enough. Besides you have to realize that the average German Landser who fought during WWII did so on the Eastern Front (where 2/3 or 3/4 of German casualties resulted depending on whose research you read) where the gloves were very much off....and you can see the mindset.

Nonetheless, Germany did have a very robust set of special missions units and others were at least special missions capable. Ever heard of Eben Emael? The attacks on the Suez? Afghan missions? mining of the Rhine bridges? Skorzeny's snatch and grab in Hungary? The attempts to get Tito? False flag missions in East Prussia in August 1931?

Anyway, my two cents

(In before the lock!)

[Laptop Hobo]

August 1939 not August 1931 typo my bad, its too early

[Polarisbrian]

The attacks on the Suez? Afghan missions?

These I am not familiar with. Very interesting. I am going to do some reading up.

I know the Germans carried out missions in Iraq, where the Iraqi Government was supportive, until the English invaded Iraq.

**Found an old thread about German missions into Afghanistan**

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...an-during-WWII

[Gryphon81]

Admiral McRaven has a book called 'Spec Ops' which analyzes some of these WWII SOF-like operations.

[ubermensche]

This is quite a good book:

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/stor..._9781846039201