Philippine warship in standoff with China vessels

[junglejim]

Well, if this sounds offending I apologize in advance: What cards do Philippines actually have? Moreover, it's true that some people did say Philippines should get some gears before that but it has absolutely nothing to do with your claim of "if you play your cards right you can get the 7th fleet.", let alone causing you to make your statement. Please don't use that as an excuse for your words.

And no you are not correct, I am not from mainland and I surely understand your meaning of 'get'. And yes I know that whether China's city is richer than Phil's or not is not that relevant, but I already said " I am getting a bit sidetrack " before I talked about the cities. Those are just a reference on the power difference. Economics (money) is a game changer.

"The Chinese signed the UNCLOS along with the other countries which is means that is Philippine territory." I seriously doubt that statement base on one question; why would China do that?

My friend you would leave me speechless if you think the US would go against a nuclear armed country for you, and I'm not talking about nuclear armed country like India which can't even hit US with its nuclear missiles. And you really think China would just forget about the debt and live on? Also, it is 21st century my friend, not 18th century when few muskets and cannons can take over a country. You were comparing with the days when China was the weakest. It is not hard to imagine what's gonna happen if the Brits and the Japanese come again; your comparison is invalid I am afraid.

"didnt even scare the Vietnamese from taking you on." Haha let those viets try, 2nd artillery will make Hanoi disappear in no time. You might say cut that crxp man, but I am not even exaggerating or joking.

talk tomo got to sleep.

As they say refrain from flame wars, so lets focus on the document presented by the Philippines instead. Catch you tomorrow.

[Mangotree]

AFAIK, ASEAN wants comprehensive, multinational solution for South China Sea using UNCLOS (cf. http://www.aseansec.org/13163.htm). It'd be rather stupid and time-wasting to have multiple bilateral solutions, for instance Scarborough is only disputed by Manila and Beijing but other parts have 3-4 claimant states.

As for notion/argument that China wants SCS because it's their energy and trade lifeline, again it won't fly. It's the same with Japan, ROK, Taiwan (claimant states), the Philippines (claimant states), Malaysia (claimant states), Vietnam (claimant states), Brunei Darussalam (claimant states), Indonesia (non-claimant states but have large oil-gas field at the southern fringe of SCS), and Singapore. We can discount Cambodia and Laos 'cause they don't have enough leverage at this matter.

Bottom line is, using UNCLOS principle of straight baseline between outermost point which only applies to archipelagic state by continental state like China is plain stupid. The US can grab huge part of Eastern Pacific by creating baseline from West Coast to Hawaii. Denmark will own Northern Atlantic by connecting Denmark proper and Greenland. And of course China also have that magical "nine-dotted line"...

Legally, China won't get what they want (the whole SCS), maybe they'll get some parts like Paracels. Brute strength application, that's another case.

[Chiptox]

As they say refrain from flame wars, so lets focus on the document presented by the Philippines instead. Catch you tomorrow.

Yes. That was an interesting read.

I noticed that the Phillipine government made note of the Palmas Island case. In the Palmas Case it was decided against the US and in favor of the Netherlands because the Netherlands had maintained a presence there whereas a Spanish explorer merely claimed Palmas island (it was later ceded to the US after the Spanish-American war). In fact, the Phillipines kind of hang their hat on it regarding their claim for Scarborough Shoal and it appears that China does too.

I assume that a pro-China member here can enlighten us as to the PRC's side of it. A quick wiki says that they were poking around there officially back in the 30's and cites some really old exploration in the 1200's. Was there any break in the timeline from 1279-1935 where no Chinese excercised authority over it making it effectively terra nullius? If so, wouldn't the Spanish surveying and claims dating from the 1700's be more applicable to this decision because this claim (which was handed down to the Phillipines) is continuous?

[junglejim]

Yes. That was an interesting read.

I noticed that the Phillipine government made note of the Palmas Island case. In the Palmas Case it was decided against the US and in favor of the Netherlands because the Netherlands had maintained a presence there whereas a Spanish explorer merely claimed Palmas island (it was later ceded to the US after the Spanish-American war). In fact, the Phillipines kind of hang their hat on it regarding their claim for Scarborough Shoal and it appears that China does too.

I assume that a pro-China member here can enlighten us as to the PRC's side of it. A quick wiki says that they were poking around there officially back in the 30's and cites some really old exploration in the 1200's. Was there any break in the timeline from 1279-1935 where no Chinese excercised authority over it making it effectively terra nullius? If so, wouldn't the Spanish surveying and claims dating from the 1700's be more applicable to this decision because this claim (which was handed down to the Phillipines) is continuous?

Actually on that note they mentioned a lighthouse erected there by the Philippines, so there was continuous presence.

[sgthanzo]

The Philippines need to do one of these in order for the Chinese to see it as a "partner."

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/20/world/...html?hpt=hp_t3

Nice!

[Flyer]

Look, this is a true Chinese!
China was tried too many, and lost too many blood for this target. In 1979, ~60 000 man/600 000 died on Vietnam land, a poor, alone and have many enemies nation. Now, you and your nation can retried. But at this moment, Vietnamese have more resources, can send all invaders to hell.

I don't want this thread get locked up either but man I was simply replying jim, I didn't even mention Vietnam in the first place.

Yeah you're right in 1979 many Chinese lives were lost in Vietnam but why have you brought that up? It's not like your country won the war and you are so proud of it.

"But at this moment, Vietnamese have more resources, can send all invaders to hell." Couldn't agree more with you if that makes you feel good. Just don't forget the things the Soviet and the CCP have done and given you to counter the US. Be thankful man. Also, you should know the very reason why the Chinese went to war with Vietnam after helping your war with US, and can u guess who was Vietnam's teacher for guerrilla warfare? The Chinese died with honor and pride and that war brought stability to the region for the following 30 years. You gotta be grateful.

It doesn't take a economics professor to tell you that Vietnam is currently focusing on her economy and war does not do much good. And to be fair Vietnam need China much more than vice versa. It seems to me that Taiwan might has a bigger part of the game btw.

[Aznthang]

The Philippines need to do one of these in order for the Chinese to see it as a "partner."

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/20/world/...html?hpt=hp_t3

Nice!

If so, the Philippines can finally have Cape Cotabato built!

[nefory]

I don't want this thread get locked up either but man I was simply replying jim, I didn't even mention Vietnam in the first place.

Yeah you're right in 1979 many Chinese lives were lost in Vietnam but why have you brought that up? It's not like your country won the war and you are so proud of it.

"But at this moment, Vietnamese have more resources, can send all invaders to hell." Couldn't agree more with you if that makes you feel good. Just don't forget the things the Soviet and the CCP have done and given you to counter the US. Be thankful man. Also, you should know the very reason why the Chinese went to war with Vietnam after helping your war with US, and can u guess who was Vietnam's teacher for guerrilla warfare? The Chinese died with honor and pride and that war brought stability to the region for the following 30 years. You gotta be grateful.

It doesn't take a economics professor to tell you that Vietnam is currently focusing on her economy and war does not do much good. And to be fair Vietnam need China much more than vice versa. It seems to me that Taiwan might has a bigger part of the game btw.

Emotions like thankfulness and gratefulness is unnecessary in the study of international affairs. Emotion does nothing but cloud your eyes.

[Flyer]

Dammit just as I was happy that we won't be getting any posts like this LOL too good to be true. Some of your responses makes me suspect already...

Hmmm if everyone( the world) thinks you are wrong but you insist you are right, what does that make you?

Seriously? You don't know the sarcastic rumor about the Philippines getting the entire 7th fleet?

I am a newbie and may you tell me what did you mean by getting any post like this? Like a china bot's one? And my responses made you suspect of what?

Yeah I gotta admit everyone is right in his own eyes. Perhaps leaving this problem for the next generation is the best method, for they might have the wisdom to solve it.

Sarcastic? You serious? Cus I don't know whether you're speaking with sarcasm or not, but I am pretty sure jim was serious about "getting the help from 7th fleet if Philippines play their cards right."

[Flyer]

Emotions like thankfulness and gratefulness is unnecessary in the study of international affairs. Emotion does nothing but cloud your eyes.

You got a point. Money is what matters. After all, it is money what all of countries are after in this affair. However, judging how much the Soviet and CCP did actually help Vietnam and later the betrayal of the Vietnamese, there has to be at least tiny bit of emotion involved, you know that.


Anyway nefory do u remember us discussing about Pakistan in the China thread? Man I am not trying to say anything but I clearly remember that in those posts you said I should be grateful for the loss of lives of the soldiers which created a peaceful 30 years period we could all enjoy, and I agree with you. Therefore I think fadine who's a Vietnamese should also be grateful. Emotion is unnecessary but sometimes inevitable.

[badger11]

You got a point. Money is what matters. After all, it is money what all of countries are after in this affair. However, judging how much the Soviet and CCP did actually help Vietnam and later the betrayal of the Vietnamese, there has to be at least tiny bit of emotion involved, you know that.


Anyway nefory do u remember us discussing about Pakistan in the China thread? Man I am not trying to say anything but I clearly remember that in those posts you said I should be grateful for the loss of lives of the soldiers which created a peaceful 30 years period we could all enjoy, and I agree with you. Therefore I think fadine who's a Vietnamese should also be grateful. Emotion is unnecessary but sometimes inevitable.

Well still Soviet/CCCP and today Russia is more likely a friend of Vietnam than say, China. And what kind of betrayal you are talking about ? I am very interested to hear your insights

[comet]

I am a newbie and may you tell me what did you mean by getting any post like this? Like a china bot's one? And my responses made you suspect of what?

Yeah I gotta admit everyone is right in his own eyes. Perhaps leaving this problem for the next generation is the best method, for they might have the wisdom to solve it.

Sarcastic? You serious? Cus I don't know whether you're speaking with sarcasm or not, but I am pretty sure jim was serious about "getting the help from 7th fleet if Philippines play their cards right."

DING DING DING DING. Winner winner chicken dinner. You said it bud not me. Also congrats despite being a newbie you already know how a chinabot acts/posts/talks/whatever.

Everyone is right in their own eyes? LOL.. yeah ok... everyone knows china is in the wrong except china herself.

Lastly, Im referring to an older thread I read a while back about the Philippines letting the USAAF stay in their country again and thereby have most US navy ships dock there. You know, let the good times roll in the subic....errrr cultural exchanges. But of course you wouldn't know anything about that cuz you are a "newbie"

[Pukewarm]

Everyone is right in their own eyes? LOL.. yeah ok... everyone knows china is in the wrong except china herself.

Politics 101, there is no right or wrong in politics

China is of course doing the right thing for their interest in the eyes of their people/government and from their point of view

how they handle this is another different matter

[Flyer]

DING DING DING DING. Winner winner chicken dinner. You said it bud not me. Also congrats despite being a newbie you already know how a chinabot acts/posts/talks/whatever.

Everyone is right in their own eyes? LOL.. yeah ok... everyone knows china is in the wrong except china herself.

Lastly, Im referring to an older thread I read a while back about the Philippines letting the USAAF stay in their country again and thereby have most US navy ships dock there. You know, let the good times roll in the subic....errrr cultural exchanges. But of course you wouldn't know anything about that cuz you are a "newbie"

Thank God at last you realized that I am a chinabot! Isn't that so obvious? Oh and you don't have to congrats me man, although you must have spent a long time to find out what they mean~ but don't worry, I accept everybody; especially a pro wannabe semi-newbie trying so hard to make fun of new people. It just tells me how sad you are man, I feel bad for you

It's ok if I don't know anything about that thread nor do what I say or how I think matter, it just won't change a thing. The US would still not help Philippines in major ways like you think believe it or not. You can be so proud of yourself for reading that thread after China has taken the region, and on that day, you might become a true pro on this forum~~ and I can quit as a chinabot!

Btw may I ask are you from Philippines?

[Netagy]

Here is a post by a someone studied international laws regarding the current dispute between China and Philippine

http://jemygatdula.blogspot.ca/2012/...and-itlos.html


Regarding the Filipinos bring China to ITLOS

..the UNCLOS dispute procedure is still consensual in nature. As we know already, the Chinese has refused our invitation to bring the matter to dispute settlement under UNCLOS rules.

> Furthermore, China has made a clear declaration of their not being under the jurisdiction of ITLOS except upon clear written consent. This declaration was made under the auspices of Art. 298 of the UNCLOS: "The Government of the People's Republic of China does not accept any of the procedures provided for in Section 2 of Part XV of the Convention with respect to all the categories of disputes referred to in paragraph 1 (a) (b) and (c) of Article 298 of the Convention."

> Don't get me wrong: there's nothing I'd like better than to thrash China before the ICJ or ITLOS but that's international law. The reason why we neeed China's consent before we haul them off to the international courts is because of this concept that activists bandy about during rallies without actually understanding what it means: sovereignty. We can't make China do something without their consent (and vice-versa). The WTO dispute procedure is different because the required consent was already given upon a country's membership into it. This is not the same with ITLOS (or ICJ for that matter).

To actually claim otherwise is irresponsible because a) it could potentially subject the Philippines to an embarrassing international loss before an international tribunal due to ignorance of international law, with the residual effect of weakening our claim over the areas; and b) it makes our DFA officials and the rest of government look as if they've been remiss in their duties when they actually cannot proceed under ITLOS rules because of China's refusal. It also makes the country look like it's been sleeping on its rights, perhaps even estopped, if this were true when clearly it's not. Even Justice Carpio's claim of bringing China for conciliation is misplaced because even at that level we still need China's consent.

And about claiming sovereignty within EEZ

> Finally, we should stop referring to proximity or the EEZ as basis for our claim over Scarborough. To claim EEZ as basis is tantamount to saying Scarborough is not our territory but merely an area that we have first right to exploit the resources found therein. In fact, Scarborough is not part of the EEZ but the EEZ is actually counted from Scarborough. Scarborough is part of Philippine territory because of discovery, occupation, and effective administration.
...
Philippine sovereignty and jurisdiction over the rocks of Bajo de Masinloc is likewise not premised on proximity or the fact that the rocks are within its 200 NM EEZ or Continental Shelf (CS) under the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS). Although the Philippines necessarily exercise sovereign rights over its EEZ and CS, nonetheless, the reason why the rock features of Bajo de Masinloc are Philippine territories is anchored on other principles of public international law.

And from Icefrog's link:

http://www.mb.com.ph/articles/357276...china-standoff

A Spokesperson answering Finipino newspaper regarding China's view on the sovereignty dispute.

2. Q: What’s your comment on the Philippines’ claim on the sovereignty of Huangyan Island?
A: Huangyan Island is China’s territory. It is China that first discovered this island, gave it the name, incorporated it into its territory, and exercised jurisdiction over it.

The Philippine territory is set by a series of international treaties, including the Treaty of Paris(1898), The Treaty of Washington(1900) and the Treaty with Great Britain (1930), none of which ever referred to Huangyan Island or included this island into its territory. Until 1997, the Philippine side has never disputed China’s jurisdiction of and development on Huangyan Island. On the other hand, the Philippines indicated on a number of occasions that Huangyan Island was beyond its territory.

According to the international law, including United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea(UNCLOS), the Philipines’ claim of the juristiction rights and sovereignty rights over Huangyan Island with the arguments of Exclusive Economic Zone(EEZ) is groundless. UNCLOS allows coastal states to claim a 200-nautical-mile EEZ, but coastal states have no rights to infringe on the inherent territory and sovereignty of other countries. The Philippines asserts that Huangyan Island is closer to its territory, but in fact “geographical proximity” has long been dismissed by the international law and practice as the principle of the solution of territory ownership.