Reply With QuoteOriginally Posted by BogT
Not this again. For the love of god, if western EU and US government holds secret that will magically make centuries old problems with gypsies disappear than why dont they share it and like Canada rather impose visa on Czech republic when Romale starts venturing into that paradise that will make all their problems disappear?
Central governments don't get to ignore local rules on urbanism. If they do, there is a problem in the way the state is establish. If you can install metal containers as housing, it means that the town rules allowed for that. Go and protest that, ask for proper implementation of urbanism rules if you are afraid of you house value drooping due to the neighborhood going to the dogs! You still don't get to chose your neighbors, just the rules of the neighborhood.
P.S. I do get the charade element to this problem.
From your reply it was understood that gypsies in EU are only from Romania and Bulgaria.
All these relocations are probably of people who occupied illegally some buildings. The problem comes from the fact that the state has to provide a home for everybody, ignoring the cause of why a person is homeless (assumption). I never understood why? I can only understand helping someone in need for a limited amount of time.
If it's a problem of law and order, than throw them in jail.
I understand perfectly the concept of democracy and the concept of freedom of speech, including protests! But there are things that you don't get to vote on in a modern state. You don't get to chose the nationality of the people living next to you. After so many years of wars, Yugoslavians should know better than that.
+Enosh
Not even close to what I was saying. I simply state that Eastern Europe is behind economically. So if you want to look at the integration problem, it's not the best place to look at since the problem gets more complex. Looking at Western European countries, US or Canada should provide a better picture of how integration is going. I made no assessment if that is successful or not.
Overall I tend to agree with zg18. Proper gypsies don't want to be integrated and give up their culture. It's our problem that we felt uncomfortable seeing them in caravans and decided to give them homes so we would feel better about ourselves (and started hundreds of fell-good/do-nothing governmental programs). Everything else related to law and order is a moot point (I just don't see what the problem of race or nationality has to do with breaking the law).
It's the city government I think, which is the same anyway, since it's the same party and therefore the same bunch of manipulators.
In a place where the government decides to just set up a container camp for them somewhere and chooses a neighbourhood without anyone asking the people from the neighbourhood*, I doubt anyone cares about urbanism restrictions. Don't be naive, you could "protest" against whatever all you want, since it is the "government" who decided that, there is no way of overturning their actions, which in itself is just another example of what kind of quasi-dictatorship the current "democratic" regime is. When it comes to the government "officials" and ruling parties, there is no real constitutional democracy and rule of law in that country and especially not in that city. They can do whatever they want, there is no courts that could overturn any of their wrongdoings. But as I've read, the president just resigned, so the people will have a chance to change that in a few weeks...
*(I'm sure they have something like a town council, on which that could be discussed and on which they could work out demands on what they would need provided if those people were to be settled there, for example guarantees on cleaning services for the area around the camp and inside the camp, proper waste removal on-site, so that they don't turn the container camp into another slum but just with better "houses" this time, guarantees that the all children of these families will go to school 100% instead of lingering around the neighbourhood all day, proper government communication channels to those families to voice complaints (public disturbances, noise during the night etc)...if all those were done, maybe the people would even feel like helping those families out, but the way this is done and being forced on them, and everyone knows it will turn into another slum, I fully understand their antagony)
The fact you seem te be missing is that gypsies contribute nothing to the society and in return get preferential treatment. Average family often spends half of their income on mortgage repayments while gypsies do nothing except reproduce, get involved in crime etc etc and after all that they receive free housing and government handouts. Some Roma people have integrated in society and are seriously ofended when connected in any shape and form to the gypsies. The solution to the problem is work for benefits schemes in which gypsies would be encouraged to work in order to receive benefits (like housing). Should they choose not to participate construction company's should be given contracts to demolish anything they build, once the winter comes around change in attitude is a certainty.
As far as the law is concerned high birth rates guarantee continuation of their criminal endeavours, lock one up and another one takes over, crack down on their activites and they will further engage children in the schemes etc etc. They may not be educated but they sure know how to work the legal system.
I believe that one of the way to start is to change the friggin laws. Because in every CE and EE country, we have laws according to which police officer cannot give fine to someone who is below poverty line. Instead, these fines are collected and create a debt for the person which afterwards have no reason to go to work because his first several monthly salaries would be taken by state as a repayment of those fines. Sure, you cannot take money which they dont have, but in that case demand a public labour. If they refuse, cut all the benefits. Also, there has to be one hell of a investigation into disabled pensions, I dont even count have many so-called "disables" have I seen which are in better shape than I am and that goes as much for white majority, as for Romale. Peronally I believe that only way to solve it permanently is to break their communities, but no one knows how.
They could've just put each family into a different part of town and given them work-for-benefits-scheme jobs at the city's waste department, most of them in Belgrade are already working with waste anyway, just that they steal it out of dumpsters or the infrastructure and then bring it to the recycling centers to sell it. That way they wouldn't clan-up so easily and would be encouraged to let their kids go to school, while the parents go earn the housing, bathroom, and food they have. Put them in such a situation, and it will (or should at least) be harder for the parents to want to just give it up, because they would be thinking about the wellbeing of their children.
It's much wiser to give them an apartment, opportunities for work, etc... then leaving them out in some ramshackle settlements. There will be some that will take the opportunity and settle down, and some will carry on as they did before - but either way the situation will improve; there will be less troublemakers. And if anyone breaks the law - bust them for it; it becomes much easier to do so when people have a fixed address (which also serves as a powerful motivator for taking up a normal lifestyle).
There is no perfect solution but it shouldn't be assumed that all these people are barbarians or that they are only living the lifestyle they lead through choice. With the right policies the problem can be reduced albeit not eliminated.
In the USSR and other Socialist countries a lot of effort was put into settling gypsies into homes and so on, literacy campaigns, etc... It wasn't always successful, but often enough it was, their children started going to school, etc...
We tried, it failed. Yeah, there are gypsies and there are gypsies, but if you give bran new apartment block to those who live in settlement the result are mostly the same - devastation, refusal to pay their bills, hightened criminality and milions euro meanwhile wasted and you are going to royaly piss the majority of population which is scrapping their last saving, or taking decade long mortgage so they could afford 30 years old flat.
Same situation exists now, in Slovakia if kid is not going regulary to school, all benefits regarding children are cut and fortunatelly in this case same merit is applied to everyone, so their parents are sending them there. Results are so far negative.
1. Outlaw the "lifestyle" (living in shantytowns, organized "pimp"-orchestrated begging and stealing, nomadic way of living).
2. Take the kids away from the parents who refuse to send their children to school.
3. Resettle the people living in "cardboard cities" to all but uninhabited villages which Serbia is full of.
4. Give them the modest means necessary to start working the land.
5. Establish services to monitor and help them.
EDIT: 6. Prepare for the mandatory hypocritical EU and NGO outcry.
Why should they get preferential treatmeant over hundreds of thousands of other people who want an apartment and opportunities for work etc?
The same: why don't regular peasants get means to work their land, but have to afford everything themselves?
Oh, well. During the Communist era in Hungary they were given pretty much everything of these. They HAD to work, as being unemployed was a crime (as simple as this). In my hometown they were even given houses and flats... imagine how those neighbourhood looks like now. These folks burned up the parquet flooring and the wall-to-wall carpets!
Nevertheless the commies were far more successful at integrating gypsies into society than the current governments are (including in Russia). Even if they weren't all that successfull at all - at least it's something. Right now there is only rising hatred and social tension, instead of programs and efforts.
Because the government wishes to get rid of a social problem; specifically one that concerns an ethnic group living in some of the most abysmal conditions.Why should they get preferential treatmeant over hundreds of thousands of other people who want an apartment and opportunities for work etc?
From what I know - in most socialist countries the flats and homes that people occupied at the end of the socialist era, switched from being state property - to their own private property. So you know what - most everyone got some big freebies anyway. Giving the gypsies the same slice of the pie as everyone else is hardly unfair.The same: why don't regular peasants get means to work their land, but have to afford everything themselves?
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