Muslims and Europe

[ghostt888]

Are the stats stated in the videos true? Like is really 1/3rd of the population of Brussels Muslim? If so I could easily see how ethnic Belgians could be threatened. Here in Ottawa there is one small part of the city that is predominantly Muslim and there have been a lot of issues arising due to this.

[JCR]

1) It's up to the individual to decide what to wear or not to wear. Not the government.
2) Everyone should be treated the same under the rule of law regardless of cultural norms, values and interest.

At the risk of replying to an Ordie post.
I principally agree with you, but there's one problem:
Liberal laws are the offspring of enlightenment.
The thinking of enlightenment philosophers (Voltaire, Rousseau, Kant and the US founding fathers) forms the framework of modern, western liberal societies.
Problem is, if you apply them to people who disregard the basic fundamentals of Enlightenment, you get a sort of "divide by zero" situation.
A radical muslim can't abide by Kant's cathegorical imperative because for him there is no entirety of humanity, only believers and non believers.
He won't judge wether his actions could be made law for all people, he simply disregards a large part of the group "all people"

[merk666]

1) It's up to the individual to decide what to wear or not to wear. Not the government.
2) Everyone should be treated the same under the rule of law regardless of cultural norms, values and interest.
That's how we do it in America.

are you sure they recognise your laws?

[Laworkerbee]

The most helpful person to me last time I was in Europe was a Somali immigrant.

[ronnieraygun]

1) It's up to the individual to decide what to wear or not to wear. Not the government.
2) Everyone should be treated the same under the rule of law regardless of cultural norms, values and interest.

Do you read into what people say too much or is it overtime at the bus depot tonight? I never said the government should tell people what to wear. I never said people should not be treated the same, although I vote your employer or ISP cap your bandwidth so you stop posting presumptions. I'm around more East African Muslims than you are every day. I don't give a shit what they wear. I'm concerned that they are raising a generation of girls to women without freedom of choice that we enjoy here. You said dude was threatened by their dress. I am not threatened. I am disgusted because these women largely are unaware that they don't have to dress a certain way or get clitorectomys here. The issue is similar in Europe - at what point do we frown on certain cultural practices which violate our principles?

[Fargin]

The most helpful person to me last time I was in Europe was a Somali immigrant.

We'll treat you alot better, next time you visit, if you don't ask for ketchup before you've even been seated.

[merk666]

The most helpful person to me last time I was in Europe was a Somali immigrant.

former pirate?

[Laworkerbee]

We'll treat you alot better, next time you visit, if you don't ask for ketchup before you've even been seated.

Just tell the French to stop putting fried eggs on my burgers and pizza's and we won't have a problem.

former pirate?

lulz!!!

[ronnieraygun]

Just tell the French to stop putting fried eggs on my burgers and pizza's and we won't have a problem.

Jeebus. The Spanish also put weird shit on my pizza. Never again.

[Moose]

Well the Islamist extremists minority actively try to create segregation. They love to incite racism because it’s a win-win for them. They know that for every generation the secularization process will further undermine their political power and control. You all know what I am talking about, the “Westboro Baptist Church” types protesting at soldiers funerals calling for sharia etc etc…
All of this “Trolling” is designed to incite racism that in turn will alienate the younger generation and push them towards (extreme Islamist) anti-social groups and behavior. Couple this with socio-economic realities and the recipe for idiocy is there.
So how do you counter this. Well the obvious answer we can learn from history is that the easy populist answers usually don’t work and eventually prove to be counterproductive in “defending the values” we supposedly uphold.

Personally, for me, this Eurabia rhetoric is getting tiresome. I would love for more people to lift the rhetoric and try to find its historical equivalences. Someone likened Islam in Europe to the raise of fascism and the current political response to that of Chamberlain. This comparison clearly underlines a lack of understanding regarding historical and current events.
Thoughts?

[Ordie]

At the risk of replying to an Ordie post.
I principally agree with you, but there's one problem:
Liberal laws are the offspring of enlightenment.
The thinking of enlightenment philosophers (Voltaire, Rousseau, Kant and the US founding fathers) forms the framework of modern, western liberal societies.
Problem is, if you apply them to people who disregard the basic fundamentals of Enlightenment, you get a sort of "divide by zero" situation.
A radical muslim can't abide by Kant's cathegorical imperative because for him there is no entirety of humanity, only believers and non believers.
He won't judge wether his actions could be made law for all people, he simply disregards a large part of the group "all people"

I understand.
But you can't expect everyone to be well versed in dead enlightened thinkers. You can't expect immigrants to automatically be Germans overnight.

It takes a generation for assimilation and acculturation to happen, and usually is works both ways where the locals adopt aspects of the immigrant community as well.

The best means for this to happen is to not make cultural exceptions or excuses when it comes to abiding the rule of law.

Keep in mind that many of the new arrivals want a fresh start and escape from the norms of servitude, family obligations, and discrimination.

The best thing that a country can do is to inform and educate the new immigrants their rights and responsibilities as members of the local community.

Imposing bukha bans or banning minarets not only alienates the immigrants, but sends a message of rejection. This may have an opposite affect as it pushes people towards the norms they may have wanted to escape from.

[Corrupt]

Spain is no different than any other Latin American country with people from all sorts of background and walks of life.

Spain isn't a Latin American country?

That's how we do it in America.

Europe isn't America?

Seriously Ordie have you ever examined something like a world map?

[JCR]

I understand.
But you can't expect everyone to be well versed in dead enlightened thinkers. You can't expect immigrants to automatically be Germans overnight.

You have a point, I'm not as pessimistic about all these things as I was say 3 years ago.
Society is no longer on blind autopilot regarding the dangers of Islamism and I know quite a lot of good examples.
Incidentally today I had a conversation with a turkish couple I know from university who went to Istambul, worked there in a high pay job (architect/head of HR/legal in a german company) decided they were too german for Turkey and went back.
I am not sure if everything will work out just fine but as things are now, the road to Eurabia is no longer a sure bet.
There won't be an automatic takeover of Europe.

[Ordie]

Spain isn't a Latin American country?

It is.
Spain is a polyglot of Argentinians, Ecuadorians, Romanians, Filipinos, North Africans, Britons, Basque, Galicians, Catalonians etc.....

Barcelona seemed identical to Buenos Aires, and Tarifa reminded me of Cabo San Lucas.

[RSone]

It is.
Spain is a polyglot of Argentinians, Ecuadorians, Romanians, Filipinos, North Africans, Britons, Basque, Galicians, Catalonians etc.....

Barcelona seemed identical to Buenos Aires, and Tarifa reminded me of Cabo San Lucas.

It's not in Latin America though.