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Thread: European Commission Gives Ukraine the Cold Shoulder

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    Default European Commission Gives Ukraine the Cold Shoulder

    The European Commission indicated on Thursday that all 27 members were planning on staying away from European Football Championship matches to be held in Ukraine. The move is just the latest European protest against the country's treatment of ex-Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko.
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-831232.html

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    Senior Member Universals's Avatar
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    [*******#333333]Yulia Tymoshenko should not be in jail, she should be in exile. Her politics is toxic and divisive, Yanukovich is a corrupt scumbag. Divisive politics and corruption is the bane of Ukraine's independence. [/COLOR]

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    Tymoshenko has broken a law and now she is in prison but her western friends are crying because... Because what? Are they afraid, that they will land in jail too?
    This case wasn't a political one. According to Ukrainian law prime minister can not force Natwohaz's president to sign agreement with Gazprom. This can be done only by whole Ukrainian government. Tymoshenko has broken the law, she gave order to sign agreement and that is why she is in prison.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smok View Post
    Tymoshenko has broken a law and now she is in prison but her western friends are crying because... Because what? Are they afraid, that they will land in jail too?
    This case wasn't a political one. According to Ukrainian law prime minister can not force Natwohaz's president to sign agreement with Gazprom. This can be done only by whole Ukrainian government. Tymoshenko has broken the law, she gave order to sign agreement and that is why she is in prison.
    You'll be kidding yourself if you don't think it's politically motivated. I'm no fan of hers, but this is Ukraine we talking about. If you interpret and enforce the law that strictly in the Ukraine, every politician in Ukraine will be facing the gallows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Universal_Soldier View Post
    You'll be kidding yourself if you don't think it's politically motivated. I'm no fan of hers, but this is Ukraine we talking about. If you interpret and enforce the law that strictly in the Ukraine, every politician in Ukraine will be facing the gallows.
    Trial of every politician is politically motivated. But it is not important now. She has broken the law and she was punished. Do you think, that politicians should be allowed to break the law? If she wouldn't be sentenced then people would say "it was politically motivated and her friends saved her". She was sentenced and people say "it was politically motivated that she was sentenced". So? Every option will be politically motivated.

    BTW funny thing with that Tymoshenko. In 1984 she graduated University, later she was just a common engineer-economist in factory, in 1988 she borrowed 5000 rubles and opened video rental and suddenly in 1991 she is unbelievable rich woman, who negotiates gas agreements for whole Ukraine. Strange - don't you think?

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    Smok, the entire Tymoshenko's accusation is ridiculous - "bad gas contract terms which led to spending more money". There is a number of politicians who simply stole money, yet nobody is putting them on trial. Politically motivated in this case means that there is no crime as such, moreover a crime for which you give a jail sentence, instead it was simply manufactured. The same applies to Lucenko.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SR25 View Post
    Smok, the entire Tymoshenko's accusation is ridiculous - "bad gas contract terms which led to spending more money". There is a number of politicians who simply stole money, yet nobody is putting them on trial. Politically motivated in this case means that there is no crime as such, moreover a crime for which you give a jail sentence, instead it was simply manufactured. The same applies to Lucenko.
    But she wasn't accused of signing bad contract. She was accused, that she give order to sign that agreement, while she had no power to do that. According to Ukrainian law that order can be given by whole government not by prime minister alone.

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    You see Smok, there is no such thing as "ordering" in this case, even from the formal point of view. There can only be government directives (as they were in fact) for the Ukrainian side which are not absolutely mandatory to follow. To be very specific, she was accused of generating directives illegally in order to get the gas flowing into the Ukraine and the rest of the Europe during that Russian-Ukrainian crisis, with the sole purpose to gain some political points, despite the fact that the terms were not economically viable.

    Well, Cabinet did not approve those allegedly illegal directives in the first place, so technically head of the Naftogaz was not obliged to sign anything anyway. On trial he was saying that Tymoshenko threatened that he would lose his job if he didnt sign it, but thats just his word against her's, and even then it was his decision, but thats kind of not even in the focus.

    The actual publicity emphasis of the trail was nothing to do with whether she used her position to push on certain people (because every minister does that, and Party Regions are like no others) but the fact that there was financial loss to the state. Now, thats a hell of a cynycal accusation. If you want to be super just (as current administration laughably pretends to be ) you would put on trial other people who caused financial loses to the state like Bojko who managed to overpay few hundred millions for oil platforms, those ministers who cancelled over 20 bln debt to local energy companies owned by oligarhas who, are sitting in Pairlament anyway, you can also put on trial those who are overpaying 8 mln dollars per 1 km of the motorway around Donetsk for Euro-2012, and how about gas contracts in 2006, they were pretty bad too, how about Kharkov Agreements in 2010 which instead of securing a discount for gas got that gas even more expensive, and that is at the expense of the state soverenty, how about increasing number of the internal troops and reducing military, and so on...

    So to cut long story short, when judicial system is picking exclusively on current or former political enemies of Regions Party, that is a politically motivated action which has nothing to do with justice.

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    I'm sure Ukrainians are devastated to be deprived of the company of such illustrious guests as Herrman van Rompuy and Catherine Baroness Ashton....
    Not to mention Oettinger

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smok View Post
    Trial of every politician is politically motivated. But it is not important now. She has broken the law and she was punished. Do you think, that politicians should be allowed to break the law? If she wouldn't be sentenced then people would say "it was politically motivated and her friends saved her". She was sentenced and people say "it was politically motivated that she was sentenced". So? Every option will be politically motivated.
    Common now, don't go all naive on me. If she wasn't tried nobody will be going around saying she got preferential treatment. My point is that the said transgression on her part is nothing compared to what's going on in Ukraine on daily basis. Besides, Russia wasn't going to give any kind of favorable/discounted gas deal to Ukraine while Yuchenko was in still president. In fact, it hasn't even happened as yet. No matter who had done that negotiation, the outcome wouldn't be much different.

    BTW funny thing with that Tymoshenko. In 1984 she graduated University, later she was just a common engineer-economist in factory, in 1988 she borrowed 5000 rubles and opened video rental and suddenly in 1991 she is unbelievable rich woman, who negotiates gas agreements for whole Ukraine. Strange - don't you think?
    Don't even get me started on Ukrainian politicians and how they made their money, cos everyone of them have their hands in the cookie-jar. It's not peculiar to Tymochenko, there's a very long list of them. The Trial was unquestionably politically motivated. But who gives a ***** anyways, she deserve whatever she gets cos her politics is just as toxic, if not worse, than that of her detractors.
    Last edited by Universals; 05-04-2012 at 06:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCR View Post
    I'm sure Ukrainians are devastated to be deprived of the company of such illustrious guests as Herrman van Rompuy and Catherine Baroness Ashton....
    Not to mention Oettinger
    They'll miss Herman's haikus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SR25 View Post
    You see Smok, there is no such thing as "ordering" in this case, even from the formal point of view. There can only be government directives (as they were in fact) for the Ukrainian side which are not absolutely mandatory to follow. To be very specific, she was accused of generating directives illegally in order to get the gas flowing into the Ukraine and the rest of the Europe during that Russian-Ukrainian crisis, with the sole purpose to gain some political points, despite the fact that the terms were not economically viable.

    Well, Cabinet did not approve those allegedly illegal directives in the first place, so technically head of the Naftogaz was not obliged to sign anything anyway. On trial he was saying that Tymoshenko threatened that he would lose his job if he didnt sign it, but thats just his word against her's, and even then it was his decision, but thats kind of not even in the focus.

    The actual publicity emphasis of the trail was nothing to do with whether she used her position to push on certain people (because every minister does that, and Party Regions are like no others) but the fact that there was financial loss to the state. Now, thats a hell of a cynycal accusation. If you want to be super just (as current administration laughably pretends to be ) you would put on trial other people who caused financial loses to the state like Bojko who managed to overpay few hundred millions for oil platforms, those ministers who cancelled over 20 bln debt to local energy companies owned by oligarhas who, are sitting in Pairlament anyway, you can also put on trial those who are overpaying 8 mln dollars per 1 km of the motorway around Donetsk for Euro-2012, and how about gas contracts in 2006, they were pretty bad too, how about Kharkov Agreements in 2010 which instead of securing a discount for gas got that gas even more expensive, and that is at the expense of the state soverenty, how about increasing number of the internal troops and reducing military, and so on...

    So to cut long story short, when judicial system is picking exclusively on current or former political enemies of Regions Party, that is a politically motivated action which has nothing to do with justice.
    So in short:
    Was it politically motivated? Yes.
    Has she broken the law? Yes.
    Should she be punished? Yes.
    Should other politicians in Ukraine land in jail? Yes.
    Should other politicians in Europe land in jail? Yes.
    Are politicians and rich people trying to save their friend Tymoshenko? Yes.
    Is law in Ukraine used selectively? Yes.

    But - she wasn't honest person and her place is in jail.

    And ordering... directives - sorry - my English isn't good enough to express all that I think. Sometimes I can't find a word or I make direct translation from Polish.

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    Well it's not up to me to tell the Ukrainian jurisdiction what to do. From my personal point of you the conviction of YT is politically motivated and wrong for what she has been convicted. On the other hand I'm sure that she belongs in prison as much as other high ranking Ukrainian polititians.
    Regarding the recent outcry of (West-) European media and many polititians I'm just wondering why now just before the soccer championship? And why haven't I seen protests that came close to the present ones in connection with the Olympics in China? Compared to a suspected wrong treatment of a slipped disk totally different things happen there every single day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AvdH View Post
    Well it's not up to me to tell the Ukrainian jurisdiction what to do. From my personal point of you the conviction of YT is politically motivated and wrong for what she has been convicted. On the other hand I'm sure that she belongs in prison as much as other high ranking Ukrainian polititians.
    Regarding the recent outcry of (West-) European media and many polititians I'm just wondering why now just before the soccer championship? And why haven't I seen protests that came close to the present ones in connection with the Olympics in China? Compared to a suspected wrong treatment of a slipped disk totally different things happen there every single day.
    speaking of China, YT can be happy she's not convicted there -those guys know how to properly punish corruption.
    Not sure why so many weep for a corrupt politician actually getting punished - imo it should be common practice - intead here they just lose their position and get to enjoy their dirty money. Not a good motivation for others to stay clean.

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    Yanukovich has the political finesse of a bull in a china shop. So many ways of sidelining your opposition without relying on old school Soviet tactics (at least it's not a mental institution).

    Exile to a nice dacha would suffice. Opponent taken out and image saved. Putting her in a regular prison and denying qualified medical assistance despite what appears to be serious (but treatable) condition will make her a bloody martyr.

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